Crossover combat rules?

[Orkar]

Hello everyone,

i am now playing on a discord server that allows cross splat RP (vtm, wta, mta, dtf, ctd) but so far most splats kept to themselves, now my Baali opens that up but we dont know quite yet the rules for such fight scenarios.

Now i did read as example that conflageration deals double damage against demons, but since they can soak agg damage, conflageration still wont harm them obe bit, making the double damage a bit...useless? (Against apocalyptic form) and since they are immune to (most) forms of mind manipulation dominate is useless too.

Meanwhile i did read somewhere but i cant remember in which book, that vampiric blood is inherently static, thus raising difficulty for mages to cast spells on vampires by X ammount (i think 4) making magic against vampires not quite effective. Anyone has the details?

Tomes of myth states that spheres also can never counteract vampiric disciplines. I guess sthat also means vampiric coutnermagic should be useless against true magick or...since its static would it still work, strengthening reality around it?

dunno about any special rules regarding werewolves or changelings. anyone of you do?

[Heavy Arms]

O...K... that's a lot.

First off, what edition are you using as a baseline? Demon and Changeling don't (currently) have any editions in common. Changeling has 1e, 2e, and 20th editions, Demon just has a Revised edition book. Some rules calls are going to hinge on this significantly.

In general, esp. when talking about crossover, it's good to be as specific as possible (like Conflagration referring to the 3rd Daimonion Disciple power) so people can check sources appropriately.

I'm unaware of anything saying that Daimonion 3 does double damage to demons, or specifically DtF's demons (since that's a whole level of interpretations) but against anything that can soak Agg it isn't that great of a power with how intense the vitae costs are to get any significant amount of damage out of it.

There's no inherent difficulty increase on mages using Spheres against vampires. The Resonance of a target can impact difficulty (in both directions) based on the effect in question. If you rule that vitae has a strong enough Static Resonance to directly impact Sphere magic, you'd need to rule what kind of Resonance that is. If you call it "unchanging" it would, for example, help a Time spell that traps the vampire in a Time bubble where nothing changes, hurt an attempt to turn the vampire into a lawn chair, and do nothing against a fireball as the mage summons the fireball and then hits the vampire with it so the vampire's Resonance is rendered moot.

I have no idea what you mean by "Tomes of myth." Spheres can explicitly counter other supernatural powers as long as it makes sense. Vampire counter-magic depends on the edition, but at best only works if it understands the principles of a mage's style. In Revised, Tremere can counter Hermetics fairly easily because they operate on the same magical principles, but the same counter-measures do jack shit against a Dreamspeaker that summons a fire spirit. In 20th there's a more comprehensive system for supernaturals to try to counter Sphere magic rather than relying on specific powers.

There are... lots of special rules in all of the games.

[Dwight]

Running massive crossover games out of the tabletop books requires everyone get short changed just enough to keep a balance. Larp rules do a slightly better job of balance in that everything is ridiculous at a certain point

[Orkar]

Thank you for the answers so far =)

My bad i meant "tome of mysteries" XD i failed to remember the name of the book properly. I am referring to the v20 rules and the dark ages v20 corebook states that conflageration deals double damage vs demons. Which is still useless as they can soak agg damage and you do "just" 1 agg per BP invested. So i made a test char with Gen 7 (background generation maxed) so he can burn 4BP a turn. Even if that specifcly high end vampire uses Conflageration against a demon and causes 8 agg damage per turn, which would anihilate any vampire, the demon still takes minor damage if at ALL as a demon can us his stamina pool + 4 dice from "armor" + potenially more from the visage to soak agg damage making the thing kinda invincible.

To mages: I am pretty certain i read it somewhere, sadly i cant rememebr in which book for the life of me, that indeed vampiric vitae is inherently static and thus resists all magic attempts in its vincinity, just strengthening reality around it which would mean that ANY spell attempt will raise in difficulty even if it is not directly aimed at the vampire, so while vampires dont count as sleepers, they still have similiar effects.

Resonance makes sense though.

Also id have a question - vampires are vulnerable to sunlight as in THE SUN, due to a specific curse, they have no issues with starlight (which are also suns) or reflected sunlight (moon) or UV rays. So when a mage "summons" "sun"light against a vampire i as ST would doubt thats light from the actual sun unless they tear a hole through reality and redirect actual sunlight to the place, so just summoning up "sun"light shouldnt do shit against a vampire, would you say that is reasonable?

Also to give werevoles and vampires a fighting chance id also be inclined to rule that anything speed enhancing, celerity, rage etc. would allow to give the werewolf and vampire X ammount of actions before the mage can do anything, allowing them to at least get the first shot which can potentially be enough to end the fight already

My goal is in the end, to limit the mages being overly self confident and feeling invincible, atm we have the issue that the mages dont really take other splats seriously as "danger" for themselves

[Heavy Arms]

My bad i meant "tome of mysteries"

Tome of Mysteries is an Awakening book, not an Ascension book.

I am referring to the v20 rules and the dark ages v20 corebook states that conflageration deals double damage vs demons.

I don't see that in V20, but it's in DAV20. But again, this is why figuring out what editions your using it going to matter.

Personally, I wouldn't double damage based on the wording. DtF demons "bound" into a human form, not purely spiritual entities.

Which is still useless as they can soak agg damage and you do "just" 1 agg per BP invested.

Yep. Though this isn't exactly any different than Garou going Crinos against it since that's +3 Soak and Agg Soak for the werewolf. Plus Gifts like Luna's Armor to boost their soak dice even higher.

I wouldn't call Garou or Demons invincible, but they can be built to take a lot of Agg damage compared to other splats. And this specific Discipline power is more weak than it needs to be. Protean Claws + Potence vastly outperforms.

I am pretty certain i read it somewhere, sadly i cant rememebr in which book for the life of me, that indeed vampiric vitae is inherently static and thus resists all magic attempts in its vincinity, just strengthening reality around it which would mean that ANY spell attempt will raise in difficulty even if it is not directly aimed at the vampire, so while vampires dont count as sleepers, they still have similiar effects.

Um... I don't remember this at all, and that's a huge deal to be stuck somewhere we'd have trouble finding readily.

So when a mage "summons" "sun"light against a vampire i as ST would doubt thats light from the actual sun unless they tear a hole through reality and redirect actual sunlight to the place, so just summoning up "sun"light shouldnt do shit against a vampire, would you say that is reasonable?

Not really:

1) If a mage creates something with Prime 2, it is "real." Using Forces 3/Prime 2 to create fire creates real fire that affects vampire like real fire. If you make creating sunlight significantly harder... mages will just use fire more.

2) Mages can just use Prime 2 or 3 (depending on edition) to make any attacks they do Aggravated against anything. Including bullets from a sniper rifle from 500m.

So, making "created" sunlight lesser? It's not really going to help vampires out. It's just going to have mages us other tactics.

Also to give werevoles and vampires a fighting chance id also be inclined to rule that anything speed enhancing, celerity, rage etc. would allow to give the werewolf and vampire X ammount of actions before the mage can do anything, allowing them to at least get the first shot which can potentially be enough to end the fight already

This also feels unnecessary. Vampire and werewolves have (relatively) easy access to Initiative boosting. They're usually going to go first. Letting them using Celerity or Rage before other characters can even go is just going to make combat really lopsided. Statistically, even a +3 advantage in Initiative is already enough to win ~90% of the time, allowing vampires and werewolves to get in an action before the mage can go most of the time. Plus it's not like mages are locked out of these things completely.

My goal is in the end, to limit the mages being overly self confident and feeling invincible, atm we have the issue that the mages dont really take other splats seriously as "danger" for themselves

That's not really something you need to change the rules to fix.

Mages are the most potent when they're prepared. Hit them where they aren't.

[Cadmiumcadamium]

Regarding Mages, Vampires and sunlight. A mage can either use Prime 2 & Forces 3 to convert quintessence into sunlight or Correspondence and Forces to teleport sunlight from the sunny side of earth to where the vampire is standing (C2 & F2 for a single beam of sunlight, C4 & F4 for a big ass beam about the size of a city block).