Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

On the Subject of Cyborgs and the Embrace

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • On the Subject of Cyborgs and the Embrace

    With the inclusion of Werewolf and Mage into the cannon, we now have individuals who, to one degree or another, have grafted cybernetics into their flesh, which leaves a certain question. We know that Vampires cannot augment themselves with cybernetics because their vampire bodies rejects them (unless you use that one Vampires in the future source book that's probably non-canonical), but what if an individual gets embraced some time after installing a cybernetic limb? Does the limb stop functioning? does it cause the user pain? does the body work to remove the limb? Etc Etc.

  • #2
    Well. The real question is which game are you playing and what does your storyteller say?

    However, one could argue that if it was spiritual cybernetics like the ones in Werewolf, that once they are grafted to dead flesh the spirit is free and you're just stuck with a piece of dead metal on your body. The ones from Mage would also stop working as Cybernetics don't work on Vampires. Now if you're playing Mage, and want to make a story about an insane necrosurgeon grafting metal and undead flesh in his laboratories that would make the Tzimisce weep with envy, why the hell not. I don't see it working for PC's, though.


    What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

    Comment


    • #3
      The closest I can think of to a parallel with this (And thats pre-recent stuff) was Kindred of the East and Dhampyr having access to things like Shih or Strike Force Zero stuff (and the consensus was 'hell no' for the same reasons most hybrid choices are frowned on) - the basic issue was that the 'half dead tissue' of Dhampyr doesn't respond well to implants (the reasons for why not becoming Shih were less rigid for some reason lol) Beyond that, the SF0 implants were all powered by Chi, so in theory you could make it work IF there was a workaround... I think the implants are closer to 'static' or the Technocratic equivalent to linear magic than to sphere stuff. Just expect it to fall into 'Hybrid' category and risk accusations of powergaming.

      One possible loophole: If a storyteller or game really wanted to they can probably contrive a reason for it to work - think of sci fi power armor like Halo or 40K - that's a related 'cybernetics' technology (indeed real life exoskeleton prosthetics may be 'worn' rather than limb replacement) so you might contrive of it that way.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by AscentionTheMage View Post
        With the inclusion of Werewolf and Mage into the cannon, we now have individuals who, to one degree or another, have grafted cybernetics into their flesh, which leaves a certain question. We know that Vampires cannot augment themselves with cybernetics because their vampire bodies rejects them (unless you use that one Vampires in the future source book that's probably non-canonical), but what if an individual gets embraced some time after installing a cybernetic limb? Does the limb stop functioning? does it cause the user pain? does the body work to remove the limb? Etc Etc.

        Werewolf and Mage cybernetics are magic proprietary to the settings there in. So no I imagine it just doesn't work for the same reason your vampire generally can't use a fetish or a wonder. Could said vampire who had a cyber arm in life get one rebuilt for him in post embrace? sounds like a plot to me and a great way to buy off a flaw.

        If you are thinking of embracing your hard core cyborg though.. I imagine that's just "there's not enough human bits to make a vampire" that's what I'd imagine generally what would happen if you tried to embrace your mid level Ixer....

        Comment


        • #5
          -Your vampire wouldn't 'reject' the objects in them, but as vamps don't have nerve signals and the like, they're probably going to become inert.

          Thaumaturgy has this whole -if it exists, there's magic for it- going on (unless you're playing v5) so it's very likely a vampire could fix the issues. Mages could also probably design these implements around the prospect of the user becoming a vampire.


          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
            Well. The real question is which game are you playing and what does your storyteller say?

            However, one could argue that if it was spiritual cybernetics like the ones in Werewolf, that once they are grafted to dead flesh the spirit is free and you're just stuck with a piece of dead metal on your body. The ones from Mage would also stop working as Cybernetics don't work on Vampires. Now if you're playing Mage, and want to make a story about an insane necrosurgeon grafting metal and undead flesh in his laboratories that would make the Tzimisce weep with envy, why the hell not. I don't see it working for PC's, though.
            On the other hand, I'd argue that the spirit is the only thing left keeping a vampire going. They are undead after all, no real "Biology" there to use to move around and eat people.

            In werewolf logic, they'd probably be closer to banes possessing a corpse than an empty, soulless/spiritless person.

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, no, not really. They're not possessed by Banes... but they can be! I mean if you're willing to get possessed by a technological bane I'd say you can get all the Cybernetics you want!

              According to both Mage and Werewolf Vampires are a desolute spiritual wasteland. But this is so far along bizzare edge cases, which is why I'm arguing that it's Storyteller's choice.


              What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

              Comment


              • #8
                The 'spiritual wasteland' is like... I prefer 'spiritually dead'

                Imagine umbral spirits are 10, Garou are 5, humans are 0, vampires are -5, Ghosts are -10. Most mages are dealing with the possitive. Its a yin/yang thing, but the yangs only understand and appreciate other yangs and the vampires are yin.

                which reminds me:can mages mimick vampire physical disciplines? Potence is extra strength without an impact on the physical form, same for the other physicals: thats a very attractive power for engineering and such.


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  Thaumaturgy has this whole -if it exists, there's magic for it- going on (unless you're playing v5) so it's very likely a vampire could fix the issues. Mages could also probably design these implements around the prospect of the user becoming a vampire.
                  Not really, I mean Technomancy isn't even updated for modern technology. Vampire powers can be adapted eventually. But building a Ritual to make your cybernetics work seems like a reasonable plot to me.

                  If you are some how getting cybernetics in v5 you've gone so far off the trail already its all make it up as you go anyway.. and new rituals are still a thing in v5, even if "INFINITE PATHS" isn't.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    The 'spiritual wasteland' is like... I prefer 'spiritually dead'

                    Imagine umbral spirits are 10, Garou are 5, humans are 0, vampires are -5, Ghosts are -10. Most mages are dealing with the possitive. Its a yin/yang thing, but the yangs only understand and appreciate other yangs and the vampires are yin.

                    which reminds me:can mages mimick vampire physical disciplines? Potence is extra strength without an impact on the physical form, same for the other physicals: thats a very attractive power for engineering and such.
                    A yin-yang comparison would imply a far more neutral judgment of vampires than what the WoD gives, even in V:tM itself, where vampires are acknowledged as inevitably bringing down the world around them and causing undue suffering with nothing to show for it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What Dino says. Wraiths are almost acceptable in comparison. They're spiritual beings created from the passions of people stuck in the Dark Umbra. Vampires are just wrong.


                      What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lian View Post

                        Not really, I mean Technomancy isn't even updated for modern technology.
                        This is more because there hasn't been all that many books between now and the end of revised; 20th is mostly just a collection of old stuff and V5 is.... It does not like thaumaturges. Rites of the Blood had some Tech stuff, and I like RotB, but it mostly focused on nonsense like vampire social media so I blocked it out. I think, what vampires need, are relatively simple rituals. Fool facial technology? Should be level 1 or 2. Get lost in Beurocracy? There's already rituals for that. Fooling thermal camera? Domino of life, level 1. Disable tech at will? There's a level 2 ritual currently. I'd like to see a ritual that just guides the internet away from vampires and stuff. Maybe on a large scale that'd be higher level, but you'd only need a few people to use it.

                        Technomancy was first mentioned in 1999 (I don't know if it was discovered in 1999, but the book it debuted in was 1999) more than 20 years ago, where household computer ownership in the UK (first good graph i could find) was 32% (2018, it's 88%). How many of those had net at that time? How many of those houses had multiple computers? If the Tremere had Technomancy like that in 1999, then they should have a lot more today. Honestly, if I gave myself time to think about it, I'd make multiple paths of technomancy because we should have multiple paths of technomancy (but really, it's all in the rituals and that's fine)


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          This is more because there hasn't been all that many books between now and the end of revised; 20th is mostly just a collection of old stuff and V5 is.... It does not like thaumaturges. Rites of the Blood had some Tech stuff, and I like RotB, but it mostly focused on nonsense like vampire social media so I blocked it out. I think, what vampires need, are relatively simple rituals. Fool facial technology? Should be level 1 or 2. Get lost in Beurocracy? There's already rituals for that. Fooling thermal camera? Domino of life, level 1. Disable tech at will? There's a level 2 ritual currently. I'd like to see a ritual that just guides the internet away from vampires and stuff. Maybe on a large scale that'd be higher level, but you'd only need a few people to use it.

                          Technomancy was first mentioned in 1999 (I don't know if it was discovered in 1999, but the book it debuted in was 1999) more than 20 years ago, where household computer ownership in the UK (first good graph i could find) was 32% (2018, it's 88%). How many of those had net at that time? How many of those houses had multiple computers? If the Tremere had Technomancy like that in 1999, then they should have a lot more today. Honestly, if I gave myself time to think about it, I'd make multiple paths of technomancy because we should have multiple paths of technomancy (but really, it's all in the rituals and that's fine)

                          By that logic there should be be Thousands of paths and rituals and that honestly does not seem ot be the case. There seem to be limitations to how much people are really developing things...BUT even if we go with your rather optimistic view of thaumaturgical development, the embrace of cyborgs are so profoundly rare there shouldn't be a path or a ritual readily available for making them work since all actual cyberware is some form of Magical item from another gameline currently.

                          Could someone develop a ritual for quint fuel to be replaced by blood? probably.. should it be easy? No. Should it be readily available.. no. That is game plot.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X