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  • Aleph
    replied
    EDIT:Oh, sorry. I hadn't realized that the thead had moved on.

    Delet this
    Last edited by Aleph; 04-29-2021, 08:37 AM.

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  • Konradleijon
    replied
    Since it’s said to be the World of Darkness and not vampire. I hope we see more game lines in

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  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Back onto the originality thing, I agree with others that people don't care too much for originality. Fans of vampire things like other things with vampires in. I think it'll get loads of fans of True Blood, Vampire Diaries, etc, and it will take them no time at all to Google VTM/WoD and find out this was a trope codifier for many things.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Thoth View Post

    Well the shows/movies have yet to be made, so we can't talk about what they are or how they are good or bad based off their own merits.

    All we have to go off of is the starter articles designed to generate hype/interest from people based on what was being promoted, but what was being promoted has a distinct lacking of substance for fans, and a large helping of mass market appeal. Mass market appeal may sell great initially, but it doesn't equate to long term fans generated. I have seen most of the Marvel movies, but I haven't purchased a comic book since the 90s and I am not invested in who lives, who dies, or who is recast in a more politically correct way.

    So all we can do with what we have is speculate about how the initial marketing could go one way or another as far as showing the quality of product. This is especially worrying considering how badly the development of Bloodlines 2 has imploded. Then couple that with the.... shall we diplomatically say "contentious" launch of V5 and the cancelation of the WoD online game by the makers of EVE online and...... the brand of V:tM and its associated games just don't have that much public confidence or good will in some circles anymore. That is just cold hard business fact, if the business was good, then it would not have been sold to other companies or down graded in those companies priorities for development support.

    In short there is nothing to really talk about until the projects are released for public viewing, unless like the aforementioned cancelations, the new products never make it to market. So all that is left is the old arguments about what is V:tM really about. But that creates what we have here, a bunch of people more or less arguing over which part of V:tM represents their interests and why that is most important.
    Well to clarify, the topic of "wokeness" or the dangers of inclusivity is not really one appropriate for these forums so I'm really open to any discussion not about that or the Legend of Korra.

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  • Thoth
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I do think we've wandered very off topic. Can we discuss what we want from the show instead or hopes/fears?
    Well the shows/movies have yet to be made, so we can't talk about what they are or how they are good or bad based off their own merits.

    All we have to go off of is the starter articles designed to generate hype/interest from people based on what was being promoted, but what was being promoted has a distinct lacking of substance for fans, and a large helping of mass market appeal. Mass market appeal may sell great initially, but it doesn't equate to long term fans generated. I have seen most of the Marvel movies, but I haven't purchased a comic book since the 90s and I am not invested in who lives, who dies, or who is recast in a more politically correct way.

    So all we can do with what we have is speculate about how the initial marketing could go one way or another as far as showing the quality of product. This is especially worrying considering how badly the development of Bloodlines 2 has imploded. Then couple that with the.... shall we diplomatically say "contentious" launch of V5 and the cancelation of the WoD online game by the makers of EVE online and...... the brand of V:tM and its associated games just don't have that much public confidence or good will in some circles anymore. That is just cold hard business fact, if the business was good, then it would not have been sold to other companies or down graded in those companies priorities for development support.

    In short there is nothing to really talk about until the projects are released for public viewing, unless like the aforementioned cancelations, the new products never make it to market. So all that is left is the old arguments about what is V:tM really about. But that creates what we have here, a bunch of people more or less arguing over which part of V:tM represents their interests and why that is most important.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I think "woke" as a perjorative is a weird idea too since it was a term by the black community to mean members that have become aware of systemic racism and abuses. It's since been co-opted as a slur by the Alt-Right.

    Which is ironic because Korra is like 4 seasons of Korra becoming aware of systemic bias against Benders, peasants vs. the Monarchy, and the evils Ethno-Nationalism.

    (Season 2 is her fighting the Devil so that doesn't count)
    I'm glad you made this point, because, as a POC of Black/Afro-Caribbean descent, I end up having to say it all the time and it's so . . . exhausting.

    Use of 'woke' as a pejorative seems to me intentionally designed to undermine Black people's own recognition of our lived experiences. We can't even use the term anymore.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    I do think we've wandered very off topic. Can we discuss what we want from the show instead or hopes/fears?

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  • Shakanaka
    replied
    "Loresheets" aren't Clans nor even remotely close to how Bloodlines functioned previously. "Loresheets" are just fluff patented merits. Actually the fact that the Samedi and Nagaraja have been relegated as "Loresheets" is even more insulting.

    Originally posted by Trippy
    A bloodline is traceable to a Clan, and there are 13 Clans.
    Wait didn't we already do this tango in another thread already? Oh yeah, something with an obsession with 13 for some arbitrary spookness factor, alright.

    Originally posted by Trippy
    but were eradicated by the Giovanni who committed diablerie on them and were nominally a Clan in their place. All the others you cite are offshoot bloodlines.
    I already know all of this already. And by your logic, you just confirm my point. At first the Giovanni WERE an offshoot Bloodline of the Cappadocians that were sired for a specific purpose. They were obscure and unknown for the most part, until they did as you claim and became a "Clan". Same as what the Tremere did to achieve their own Clan status with their drama with the Salubri.

    Originally posted by Trippy
    Incidentally, when you claim they should all be part of the same Sect, it doesn’t encourage me that you have a clear knowledge of any of them, because some of them are committed to particular Sects already.
    In the past I have critiqued the entire basis of the Hecata whether as a Sect or either in its current state of being a defacto "Clan". In any margin I don't think the Hecata is really good at all, but I can see a glimmer of a compromise of just making it a real-to-god Sect atleast; than the state it has rendered the Samedi and Nagaraja as of now.

    I also don't know what you even mean by the last part. The Samedi were completely independent and didn't care about either the Camarilla nor Sabbat. The Nagaraja were apart of the True Black Hand and that was their main Sect since forever, but since the 6th Great Maelstrom and them even coming to join this Hecata thing tells me that Sect is probably defunct. The Harbingers of Skulls never cared for the Sabbat, just used it as a stopgap of recuperating a bit after coming back from the Shadowlands. The Giovanni were independent before like the Samedi, but we already know what went down with them.

    So yeah, it's amusing you go down "it doesn’t encourage me that you have a clear knowledge of any of them" when you don't even know anything about them and prove some ignorance on the matter.

    Originally posted by Trippy
    None of this has anything to do with the issue of inclusiveness as was being originally discussed, btw.
    How exactly, when I was originally addressing how something was streamlined out of diversity in the first place?
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 04-29-2021, 01:55 AM.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    Bloodlines - Clans; the distinctions were mainly things to denote influence, numbers, prestige, and power. Not much else. By your logic, the Brujah are a bloodline since they aren't the real Brujah because the Trujah is. Trujah used to be the real Clan, now they were relegated to Bloodlines status. The Salubri were one of the most pivotal and important Clans in the lore of VTM, but became an obscure mere Bloodline due to the Tremere. The Cappocians used to be a full Clan, but after a series of destruction and betrayal by the Giovannia; they became a Bloodline via the Harbingers of Skulls. Its all pedantic stuff really.

    And THEY were erased, I don't know why you're saying they were not. They don't exist as actual Clans/Bloodlines (putting Bloodlines so you don't nickpick that point anymore) you can actually play with full depth of different mechanics and actual feel they are different. None of them have that, they've all be subordinated into the Hecata garbo-thing. To have them be "discussed" is only flavor text and nothing actually broaching OOC reality. I don't think it's wise to pretend to care about diversity, when thinking what was done with the Samedi and Nagaraja was even halfway good with the whole Hecata thing.

    Though ostensibly when you probably didn't care about these Clans/Bloodlines to begin with or were ignorant about them, I can see why at face-value, why would any; and not just you, mind you; would think the Hecata was a good idea at all. But it was not, it was a diversity killer and lukewarm justification of a "Sect, but in actuality it's a Clan" thing to off the various Necromantic Clans/Bloodlines.
    No.

    A bloodline is traceable to a Clan, and there are 13 Clans. The Cappadocians wreathe original death Clan, but were eradicated by the Giovanni who committed diablerie on them and were nominally a Clan in their place. All the others you cite are offshoot bloodlines. Incidentally, when you claim they should all be part of the same Sect, it doesn’t encourage me that you have a clear knowledge of any of them, because some of them are committed to particular Sects already. It is not a nitpick to know what each of these terms are referring to.

    Just repeating yourself with capital letters doesn’t make you right, and your anger is misplaced. All of these lines are discussed in the Cults of the Blood Gods.

    None of this has anything to do with the issue of inclusiveness as was being originally discussed, btw.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Honestly, the Bloodlines do exist as Loresheets so its not a sect OR A CLAN but a Blood Cult. Which is its own separate thing.

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  • Shakanaka
    replied
    Bloodlines - Clans; the distinctions were mainly things to denote influence, numbers, prestige, and power. Not much else. By your logic, the Brujah are a bloodline since they aren't the real Brujah because the Trujah is. Trujah used to be the real Clan, now they were relegated to Bloodlines status. The Salubri were one of the most pivotal and important Clans in the lore of VTM, but became an obscure mere Bloodline due to the Tremere. The Cappocians used to be a full Clan, but after a series of destruction and betrayal by the Giovannia; they became a Bloodline via the Harbingers of Skulls. Its all pedantic stuff really.

    And THEY were erased, I don't know why you're saying they were not. They don't exist as actual Clans/Bloodlines (putting Bloodlines so you don't nickpick that point anymore) you can actually play with full depth of different mechanics and actual feel they are different. None of them have that, they've all be subordinated into the Hecata garbo-thing. To have them be "discussed" is only flavor text and nothing actually broaching OOC reality. I don't think it's wise to pretend to care about diversity, when thinking what was done with the Samedi and Nagaraja was even halfway good with the whole Hecata thing.

    Though ostensibly when you probably didn't care about these Clans/Bloodlines to begin with or were ignorant about them, I can see why at face-value, why would any; and not just you, mind you; would think the Hecata was a good idea at all. But it was not, it was a diversity killer and lukewarm justification of a "Sect, but in actuality it's a Clan" thing to off the various Necromantic Clans/Bloodlines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

    What in the world are you talking about? The Giovanni? Alright, maybe they could've de-emphasized the whole Italian thing within it, that's fair. But the Samedi and the Nagaraja already could and mostly did Embrace from multiple ethnicities wherever they could or who they fancied. Do you even know of any of the Clans I'm talking about to begin with? ..But does it even matter to even know them, since they've been emptively erased by this Hecata Clan nonsense? Probably not, since the making of it in the first place wasn't about having diversity; but eking """"""streamlining"""""" and uniformity of things as of late.

    And mind out all the Clans clobbered together in this Hecata, it was only the Giovanni as I said that most likely embraced from only Italians (actually, not even really Italians anyway, but only from their own mortal family linked to their Clan) and/or ethnicity. Not even the Harbingers of the Skulls/Cappocians only looked for certain ethnicties to Embrace from any aswell, to put up another point in this.
    They are not Clans, they are Bloodlines - important distinction - and they haven’t been erased. They are all detailed and discussed in Cults of the Blood Gods.

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  • Shakanaka
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy
    Hecata are no longer tied with one particular ethnicity, but can include vampires from many different cultures and backgrounds.
    What in the world are you talking about? The Giovanni? Alright, maybe they could've de-emphasized the whole Italian thing within it, that's fair. But the Samedi and the Nagaraja already could and mostly did Embrace from multiple ethnicities wherever they could or who they fancied. Do you even know of any of the Clans I'm talking about to begin with? ..But does it even matter to even know them, since they've been emptively erased by this Hecata Clan nonsense? Probably not, since the making of it in the first place wasn't about having diversity; but eking """"""streamlining"""""" and uniformity of things as of late.

    And mind out all the Clans clobbered together in this Hecata, it was only the Giovanni as I said that most likely embraced from only Italians (actually, not even really Italians anyway, but only from their own mortal family linked to their Clan) and/or ethnicity. Not even the Harbingers of the Skulls/Cappocians only looked for certain ethnicties to Embrace from any aswell, to put up another point in this.

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

    That's the point. It should've not have been a Clan, it could've actually been a Sect. The Samedi, the Giovanni (the neonate portion of course, since the backdrop of all of this forming was due to a revolution), Harbingers of the Skulls, and Nagaraja could've all been easily completely different Clans altogether; but just unified under the Hecata to ICly consolidation their influence, necromancy, and power.

    I actually would've supported the Hecata as a concept and sitting metaplot development, since it's already known that I actually WANT more Sects to add to the dynamic of the game. However when viewed in its entirety, the Hecata aren't a Sect. It's a Clan and done horribly. Everyone has lost their traditional Clan curse for the Giovanni one (yeah, where is the diversity in this exactly? Biggest insult was that the logic was that since the Samedi, Giovanni, and Harbinger of the Skulls stem from the Cappodocians "it makes sense" that suddenly now they all have the same curse with the Harbinger of the Skulls' move. Nevermind they forgot entirely the Nagaraja literally had nothing to do with the Cappodcians or subsequent lineages thereafter. It really just shows they made the Hecata entirely as a lazy decision to "streamline"/cut down diversity in the game).

    Oh, and don't forget they unilaterally destroyed all the unique different Paths of Necromancy for the one lazy Oblivion thing. Certainty not a move of diversity at all either.

    I just want to know why exactly could've the Hecata just be a real Sect. It would've not been that hard to do whatsoever.
    That wouldn’t have worked for me, because it is confusing bloodlines with Clans. There are 13 Clans.

    The diversity is found in that the Hecata are no longer tied with one particular ethnicity, but can include vampires from many different cultures and backgrounds.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    But mutants in the Marvel universe are oppressed. Unlike Korra where a good chunk of leaders are benders. I think the main issue is that they used a lot of the imagery of communism/nazism/socialism as shorthand but they didnt really think it out in this kind of world. So, its messy. Kind of the race allegory in zootopia.

    I’m not saying Amon and the equalists are meant to be facists I’m saying the allegory was terrible . And worse then most “bad racism allegories” the internet likes to criticize, Zootopia,RWBY,Bright,X-men., they all have better oppression allegories then Korra, through that isn’t to praise them.

    Because they actually make the target of fantasy racism oppressed.
    My last statement on the subject is that they BECOME oppressed in the first season because, again, mass-extermination and arrests following a coup. It's just a kids show so that the anti-Bender racism is a result of Amon's scapegoating.

    But yes, way off topic. I'm done.

    My bad for contributing.

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