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How do you resolve the Lore issues involved with D:tF?

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  • How do you resolve the Lore issues involved with D:tF?

    I love Demon the Fallen, but even I have to admit that it clunked with the rest of the game line and almost would have been better as a stand alone game. The knowledge that the Abrahamic god was not only canon, but he was more or less what his PR made him out to be was unsettling. So how about a compromise? What if the D:tF really ARE Changeling Prodigals? What if they come from the Dreams of humans about not only Demons but of the urge to rebel against divine authority, both for good and bad reasons? They can have the themes of demons across multiple cultures besides just the Abrahamic ones, but they can draw most of their power from the Abrahamic myths and perceptions of them because they have had the largest, single most coherent (kind of) perception of Demons. They can be severed from the Dreaming because the belief in them is so strong that they are yanked into the Autumn world where the Dreaming could not follow.

    Any other ideas?

  • #2
    I think everything you've suggested is fine. When one of White Wolf's supernatural beings appears in another's game line, something in the competing cosmologies has to give, and Demon was the latecomer game line that had the shallowest roots.

    Their whole story seems pretty compatible with the Vampire, Wraith, and possibly Mage settings, because those game settings either build on a lot of the same legends or at least have room for Demon's fictional history to be true. I also tend to view Werewolf's mythology as largely symbolic, and their magic as a way to bring about change by interacting with symbols and metaphors. I'm reading your post as looking for alternate histories for the Demons, however. Another poster might be able to offer more help there.

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    • #3
      Changeling and Demon have a lot of crossover potential. In a way, even their specific rules support and enhance each other. Specially Changeling, being the game with more editions, has a lot to offer Demon. Glamour and Faith are both about belief, and the ways of acquiring Glamour could be adapted to give Demons more options. Reverie/Musing is already a form of inspirational Pact. The concept of Banality, or Unbelief, could serve well the setting of Demons, where Faith can ebb and flow, awakening Earthbound demons as well as putting them in slumber. Also, Demon Lores would benefit a lot from the more free-form rules of Unleashing. And Nightmare dice could help represent High Tormet uses of Lores. All in all, the Changeling setting history already has a niche perfect for including Demons: the Fomorians, the very anthithesis of the Tuatha. Why they take on Abrhamaic themes would neeed an explanation, of course. Or they could work as Prodigals, as you suggested, or even Darkin. And from a Demon setting perspective, the Fae - by claiming to be the creators of Existence (as per their Dark Ages lore) - could very well have been orignally the loyal angels.

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      • #4
        I think connecting them to the Dreaming works fine if that’s what you and your table are comfortable with/prefer. It clicks with the old Victorian idea that the Fair Folk are angels that were too bad for Heaven, too good for hell, so synergy there.

        Personally I go more with something like a mix of the Multi-Resonance Layered Reality & Consensual Reality and a divine pool idea. Basically the former is the basics about how different cosmologies could be simultaneously true before the fall and still are spiritually but that in the material consensus reality determines what humanity interprets reality as. The latter, the divine pool, is basically the idea that connected to The One/The Everything that DtF describes as having been with Nothing before Creation is every divine principle that you could imagine. That essence of everything can be interpreted as the G-d of Abraham or any other divine or what have you and will reflect the ambient culture which spirits like Demons and Chimera emerge into on the material side.

        Basically I like to have the divine pool idea to be there to represent The One/The Cosmic Everything as it gives me a place that True Faith can draw power from and it satisfies my levels of discomfort with not having actual divinities around, even conceptually, while you’ve got vampires and the like calling themselves them. I basically saw that any theological or conceptual idea that can uplift/inspire humanity can be traced by golden threads back to the divine pool and take any number of shapes.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Reasor View Post
          I think everything you've suggested is fine. When one of White Wolf's supernatural beings appears in another's game line, something in the competing cosmologies has to give, and Demon was the latecomer game line that had the shallowest roots.

          Their whole story seems pretty compatible with the Vampire, Wraith, and possibly Mage settings, because those game settings either build on a lot of the same legends or at least have room for Demon's fictional history to be true. I also tend to view Werewolf's mythology as largely symbolic, and their magic as a way to bring about change by interacting with symbols and metaphors
          It's usually very visceral and solid, though. Symbolism in W:tA is usually way more lightly used than in, say, Mage, where it powers whole paradigms. In contrast, the Garou and Fera are far more direct and in-tune with palpable metaphysical forces.

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          • #6
            Demon literally resolves this with its lore where it said that prior to God getting involved, the universe was paradox free, but then God poked it and entropy was created and the universe shattered. There's your answer. There's inherent contradictory answers because of what happened and the universe is a series of overlapping contradictions.


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            • #7
              The trick for me is to keep around a handful of important core pieces of their mythology as true, while being willing to have a lot of it actually be bullshit. My understanding is that Demon: the Fallen can be especially accommodating to this due to the Fallen 1) having their actual memories jumbled up with the beliefs of the hosts they have possessed, and 2) being kind of (or VERY) crazy from their Torment.

              So, God exists, but God is not necessarily Alpha and Omega. Angels and Demons exist, and have a special relationship with humanity, but they are not necessarily the oldest or most powerful beings out there. My crossover backstory for God, Angels, and Demons actually ties a bit closer to Mage, due to their close relationship with humanity.

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              • #8
                What Kharnov said. Keep the broad details true, but the specifics could vary. This is pretty much built into the larger cosmology (specifically with DtF as well) given that mortals only see a fraction of the reality compared to what the angels and deities could see originally (since they operated on multiple levels/dimensions simultaneously whereas mortals didn't) so what seems inconsistent to a mortal isn't necessarily so to a being with a more complex perspective on things (and complex way of thinking). In other words, just because it looks inconsistent to us doesn't mean it is objectively inconsistent, it just means we don't see the full picture (and its a very complex, multi-leveled picture at that.)

                I always figured it was meant to (broadly) allow as many possible headcanons (alternate continuities) as possible whilst retaining something vaguely like a coherent cosmology.

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                • #9
                  I don't believe much thought was given to crossovers at all, due to the timing of D:tF's release. The game line as a whole - which was really a pretty small and limited affair - mostly reflected the accelerating approach of the end of the Original World of Darkness entirely.

                  This is, itself, admittedly a headcanon, but one that I think reflects credit on on the creativity and passion of everyone who has continued to add value to D:tF with discussions like these.

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                  • #10
                    I think it depends on how 'specific' you want things to get. I mean in broad strokes there's still a ton of overlap and similarities and it's still supposed to be heavily 'point of view' in the DtF mythology (humans could only see part of the big picture because it occurred on multiple levels/dimensions, and the Fallen likewise lost that 'big picture' view as well on top of their memories) so there's plenty of wiggle room for linking things together. I mean on the broadest strokes most of the settings feature some sort of 'fall from grace' plot and figures of divinity playing a role in some fashion - they just differ in the window dressing. IMHO the biggest challenge The biggest challenge are what you can get other people (players) to believe as far as rationalization goes, because people may have very specific (and deeply held) ideas about how settings are meant to be depicted.

                    As far as for discrepancies and contradictions (which do exist) I think that reflects the problems inherent in any shared-universe setting where you have multiple people contributing their perspective about what the 'proper' continuity is even without factoring in multiple editions (where the narrative may evolve or change over time) and multiple games systems (which often put their own mythology front and center even if it comes at the expense of other settings.) For all its contradictions Classic WoD and the ST system did a pretty good job tying it all together and allowing for creative variety. I've seen far worse examples.
                    Last edited by Mister_Dunpeal; 07-12-2021, 11:51 PM.

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