Can Imbued Hunters Beat Higher-end Supernatural Creatures?

[UnCritical]

To clarify, can the Imbued Hunters from Hunter: The Reckoning plausibly beat the higher ranked members of various splats? Not even talking Archmages or Antediluvians, but Master Mages and Elders.

It's the Imbued's job to deal with the supernatural wherever they may encounter, but they are probably the weakest splat of the oWoD and don't seem to grow to be nearly as ridiculously as the others. Is it even possible for them to beat the stronger members?

[Professor Phobos]

I don't see why not. They just need to spend the season looking for the secret weakness, McGuffin, allies, or opportunity they need, and pull it off during the season finale.

[Heavy Arms]

Can they? Yes. Are they likely to? No.

While the Imbued are over all not that powerful (though if they hit Level 5 Edge territory they can get some pretty juicy stuff), they have a huge advantage in being exceedingly unpredictable to the monsters of the WoD. Their powers let them come at monsters in a very sideways fashion, which can cut through a lot of the protections heavy hitters tend to build up around themselves (because very few things in the WoD are so strong they can afford to not be proactive about defending themselves).

Of course, the Imbued don't necessarily understand what's going on any better, so while they trying to take advantage of their gifts and capitalize on their enemy's weaknesses, it's far from a sure thing.

So, if the stars align just right, yeah, the Imbued can take out so very impressive dangerous things. If one thing is out of place, they probably get squished.

[babi_gog]

Would add to the above, that if the Imbued are working as a group and employ edges well, then yes they can.

Example: Tracking a group of vampires down to a big gathering of them. Having spent a long time doing this carefully. Through a pair of binoculars to see them jumping over a fire, the Judge I was playing used the Edge the freezes a supernatural in place (as long as they are in the Judge is line of sight). Hold vampire in place for a second - they lose momentum, fall in the fire. Did this to a couple before the group of Imbued made a tactical withdrawal before we got turned into paste.

[UnCritical]

(though if they hit Level 5 Edge territory they can get some pretty juicy stuff),

I think in some cases, the increase in power lower-level Edges get is more impressive than the level 5 Edge itself. For example, given the rate at which the area affected increases per two successes and the number of dice they'd be rolling, it's not out of the realm of possibility that a Defender Extremist could use Lock to cover an entire city for an entire day with enough successes.

[Theodrim]

While the Imbued are over all not that powerful (though if they hit Level 5 Edge territory they can get some pretty juicy stuff), they have a huge advantage in being exceedingly unpredictable...Their powers let them come at monsters in a very sideways fashion, which can cut through a lot of the protections heavy hitters tend to build up around themselves...

This. One of the hunter games in which I was a PC -- not even imbued, just regular-ass mortal hunters -- I masterminded a scheme to take out an elder vampire by assaulting their haven at daytime with a monster truck retrofitted to mount ma deuces in the bed and flamethrowers up front. It doesn't matter how old a vampire you are, having to fight Truckasaurus Rex at noontime ain't a winning proposition.

At the time that game happened I'd been playing with that ST for nearly twenty years from all possible sides of the screen. I've ran with him as a player, he's run with me as a player, we've both been in games with someone else ST'ing, and we've even co-ST'ed games. He's well used to my batshit insane scheming at the table, and barely bats an eye at some of the most fucked up shit I bring to a game. But the monster truck? that was the one that scared him because he'd already planned well in advance for any possible stupid-ass scheme I could have possbly brought to the table...or so he thought.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Part of the issue with HtR is that it's system has a number of differences from the other game systems (the lack of aggravated damage naturally, etc.) but the scope of the threats don't really reach the level of Archmages or Antediluvians or similar (although given how detailed the systems are given in Enemy books they can still be *quite* powerful in setting)

The other part (at least as I see it) is that thematically the Hunters weren't meant to be superpowerful in the main. Whether its Fyodor's theory about diluted bloodlines (less powerful 'heroes') or the idea that the Messengers didn't want to repeat past mistakes/create broken champions (Waywards) or some combination thereof, the modern 'hunter' is much more modest power-wise. That doesn't mean that the potential for more power doesn't exist (Fall from Grace touches on this in a number of ways) it just a.) isn't extensively mapped out in the rules (as Heavy Arms notes its more or less a 'level 5 Edge' territory thing) and b.) mortals aren't meant to operate at that level of power indefinitely anyhow (burning the candle at both ends so to speak, which I believe is also covered in Fall From Grace in various ways.)

That said there are some ways to amend this. The 'Dark Ages' equivalent to Hunter (Inquisitor) has alot of powers that arguably are much more high-tier than HtR (along with allowing for aggravated damage, more soak options for mortals, multiple-attack analogues, etc.) Many of them could fall under the 'level 4 or 5' edge category to 'power up' modern Hunters. Also, 'Time of Judgement' gives a few ideas on how you can 'boost' Hunters capabilities if you need them to tackle threats directly (more health levels, for example) under the principle that the Messengers decided to remove the limits on their mortal agents so to speak. If you want to reach further you could assume a more 'high tier' hunter is like the Dhampir-imbued implied in Becket's Jyhad Diary.

I'm still not sure this means a group of hunters would have been able to singlehandedly take on, say, an ancient Methuselah vampire but it would definitely level the playing field especially if they can bring other things into play.

[AnubisXy]

I seem to recall in Time of Judgement, a story about a Hunter fucking up Lucifer pretty hard, showing that they're capable of tangling with even the most ancient and powerful of foes. Of course something like that is well outside the mechanical system presented in the gameline.

[Rock113]

Reading Lucifer's suffering in ToJ, I think damage made by level 5 edges are all unsoakable, by no means. They are powers directly from The One Above.

Some level 5 edges may recall or touch the ancient imbued heroes. Infuse in Fall from Grace for example.

In one of KotE ending Jade Emperor boosts Shih and Imbueds to make them new Wan Xian. It says their Conviction increases as Shih's Qi (100 at most), and they can use "elder" level edges.

But just in my opinion, if Imbueds become powerful heroes as their ancestory, I will adapt Demon Lore rules to express them, maybe they have abundant Conviciton which can boost Edge both on breadth and strength (For example you can Block the whole continent and make even oldest vampire's Dominate disable)

[Theodrim]

That said there are some ways to amend this...If you want to reach further you could assume a more 'high tier' hunter is like the Dhampir-imbued implied in Becket's Jyhad Diary.

Honestly, though I'm not generally a fan of crossover-splat games an interesting and fun way to accomplish this, is by way of force multiplication through "second-string" characters in various splats. The B-listers -- static mages, ghouls or revenants, wraiths since they're more easily controlled by an ST and not as gonzo as some of the other fatsplats, even a fomor with a sensible combination of powers and taints -- make for good PC or NPC ally additions. And with the right PC's, it really goes a long way to pushing the "who are the real monsters and must they always be the supernatural creatures?" themes of HtR.

Static mages are a near-perfect complement to imbued hunters, because they're so diverse yet on rough parity in terms of overall power. They can be tailored to do basically anything hunters can't, or might need to do, without overshadowing imbued hunters. And, imbued hunters can do a lot more than they otherwise could when they have someone at their back capable of healing and buffing them, or putting charms or talismans in their hands. It won't push a group of hunters into, say, "take down a methuselah in a straight fight" territory, but enemies that usually amount to a given chronicle's big bads (a powerful spirit, notorious elder, master mage or cabal of Nephandi, etc.) enter a group of imbued's grasp.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Honestly, though I'm not generally a fan of crossover-splat games an interesting and fun way to accomplish this, is by way of force multiplication through "second-string" characters in various splats. The B-listers -- static mages, ghouls or revenants, wraiths since they're more easily controlled by an ST and not as gonzo as some of the other fatsplats, even a fomor with a sensible combination of powers and taints -- make for good PC or NPC ally additions. And with the right PC's, it really goes a long way to pushing the "who are the real monsters and must they always be the supernatural creatures?" themes of HtR.

Static mages are a near-perfect complement to imbued hunters, because they're so diverse yet on rough parity in terms of overall power. They can be tailored to do basically anything hunters can't, or might need to do, without overshadowing imbued hunters. And, imbued hunters can do a lot more than they otherwise could when they have someone at their back capable of healing and buffing them, or putting charms or talismans in their hands. It won't push a group of hunters into, say, "take down a methuselah in a straight fight" territory, but enemies that usually amount to a given chronicle's big bads (a powerful spirit, notorious elder, master mage or cabal of Nephandi, etc.) enter a group of imbued's grasp.

First: While I can see where you are coming from that particular hybrid from BJD isn't really that over the top (we're talking a power level far less than your average ghoul/Revenant mage, even by V20 rules) and thematically it could fit given how much media emphasizes 'Dhampir as vampire hunter' - I mean how many sourcebooks referened Vampire Hunter D as an example? And it's not much different than Hunters being possessed by Demons (or angels depending on how you look at Fall from Grace) or potentially treated as thralls (arguably less since any Dhampir isn't likely to be old or deranged enough to reach the truly insane levels of power even a Hunter can amass even if they *did* become imbued.) It's not even as if something like 'soaking lethal damage' is all that far fetched either (that was one of the options Times of Judgement gave to 'powered up' Imbued, and far from the only one.)

The main problem is that not everyone may like using V20 rules or may prefer to stick strictly to pre-V20 editions, since that particular rule is a V20 one.


Second: the thing is that 'The Spellbound' Hunter Enemy book makes it clear that static/hedge magic is even less well known to Hunters (certainly not enough to distinguish Sphere magic and hedge magic) but there's also the fact that for the most part spellcasters are as much a part of the 'problem' from the Hunter POV as any other supernatural faction. Even those that don't want to destroy the warlocks don't really want them practicing magic so the idea of alliances - whilst not impossible - are rather hard to imagine.

The best 'fit' in such a situation is probably along the lines of the Dark Ages Inquisition (technically dark ages 'Imbued') and the Society of Leopold (which does include the theurgists, a form of hedge magician) I suppose you could also consider 'divinely' themed hunters to be part of that mixup as well (like Crusader17) but even this is a mixed bag (see 'First Contact' and the section on the Inquisition vs Hunter relations) which is why I more explicitly mentioned the Dark Ages variant, since the connection is stronger.

Not saying any of this can't be made to work, but I don't see it as being more kludgy than hybrids since in the end it really comes up to how the Storyteller and players work together. But YMMV.

[Prometheas]

Second: the thing is that 'The Spellbound' Hunter Enemy book makes it clear that static/hedge magic is even less well known to Hunters (certainly not enough to distinguish Sphere magic and hedge magic) but there's also the fact that for the most part spellcasters are as much a part of the 'problem' from the Hunter POV as any other supernatural faction. Even those that don't want to destroy the warlocks don't really want them practicing magic so the idea of alliances - whilst not impossible - are rather hard to imagine.

Never understood the hunters vs mages/sorcerers angle in the HtR books.

As per mage's lore, magic is 100% the birthrite of humanity and the issue is that it's being squashed(by the higher ups in the technocracy) or hoarded among a select few(by the higher ups in the traditions). Even other splat-books acknowledge that mages are using the power from within themselves even if the splat in question think using true magick is heresy to their religion.

Granted this IS the World of Darkness, so the messengers might be trying to strangle humanity's potential while it's still in its crib.

[angryicecream]

Yeah, and a lot of vampires think they have the right to rule over humanity however they fit. Doesn't mean they're right. By the same angle, magic isn't nec the birthright of humanity just because Mages think it is. That said, let's hypothetically assume it is: the Mages, as they exist now, are very much a problem. They war with one another, oppressing humanity in their schemes. Their mad ambitions have terrible backlashes that rock the foundations of the world. 2008 recession was, in Mage, a Syndicate paradox backlash. Forget what they call it (Market Corrections?). WW1? A Mage decided he was going to force the world to be peaceful at gunpoint and the backlash was so terrible the whole event got wiped out of history and replaced with the horrors of the first world war. Which, naturally, created the second. The Union likes to claim to be responsible for all technology but... they aren't. They mostly just strictly define where it can go and actively try to curb tech that doesn't go with their goals. They are responsible for a lot of the higher scientific principles but that doesn't mean anything to most people so shrug.

All that aside, I do think Mages provide more benefits than harm but they are far from a pure good so them getting pinged as wrong to Imbued makes sense to me since their sense seems to be a binary not a spectrum. It's "Detect Magic" not "Detect Evil", if that makes sense. Pretty sure a True Faith 5 Vampire in Golconda would also ping to it and that person would be far more benevolent than your average Mage.

[Heavy Arms]

It's also important to remember that a lot of things in the WoD ping as "wrong" to the Imbued. Low wage workers that happen to make their slave pay at a Pentex subsidiary can easily get exposed to enough Wyrm to start pinging as "wrong" and they're just normal people that have been overexposed to supernatural emanation.

There's a reason why there are Edges that provide more detailed information than normal Second Sight can to better know what your character is up against.

Of course HtR posits magic users as one of the more complex interactions between the Imbued and the wider WoD because the Mage factions and various Numina using groups are less overtly monsters and frequently have similar goals to the Imbued from a more human perspective (it's a lot easier for the Imbued to understand the Unions' desire to get rid of reality deviants than it is to understand the way the Garou justify their targets of choice).

[Rock113]

Btw, W20 Book of Wyrm mentions Pentex has an imbued CEO called David Kaufman, who wants to burn the whole organization inside. This may show given time and effort they can also do sth really great…