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  • Mixing Old and New

    I'm a fan of both Chronicles and World and I like them for what they are, but I'm also the kind of guy that likes mixing the things I like together. For a while now, I've been batting around ideas of elements from one version or another of the World of Darkness and how to mix them together, at least partially prompted by finally getting the translation guides.


    What elements of the Old and New World of Darkness do you like to mix together?

    For Vampire, I personally like to take the Old Clans and mix in some of the New Covenants. The Camarilla is something that's existed in various forms since Roman times, although the continuity has the occasional gaps in it. The Invictus exists as a sort of "faction within a faction" in the Camarilla, primarily consisting of vampires that either date back to roman times, claim they do, or are the childer of such a vampire. I flipped the ages of them(Camarilla being essentially younger than the Invictus) and fused them because it annoyed me to have them both present and to have the group named "Invincible" in Latin to be the younger. Also, it kinda fits as an ego move for old vampires, so that works well.

    The Sabbat is largely the same, mostly because I don't know too much in depth about their lore.

    The Anarchs and the Carthians are debatably merged together as well. They consist of a large variety of various vampires who reject the Camarilla and attempt to devise their own form of government to get through the Nights. They're more of a broad label than an actual organization though.

    The Lancea is present mostly unchanged as a largely Christian Heresy that help the more religious vampires to not off themselves in response to their new condition. They acknowledge Caine as the First Vampire cursed by God for the act of murdering his brother, but believe that he rejected the duty and responsibility that came with it and so isn't worthy of veneration. They believe that Saint Longinus accepted his role as God's Monster and that he was likewise Cursed by God directly and so is a "First Generation" vampire. As can be imagined, the Sabbat don't like them.

    The Ordo and the Circle of the Crone are more or less the same as in VtR. The Crone that the Circle venerates is believed to be the same one that once tricked Caine into making her a vampire(among other things). The Sabbat doesn't like them either.

    For Werewolf, I tend towards using mostly the Shadow and its spirit ecology over the Umbra, although elements of the later exist. Werewolves are the Garou, but things are a bit messy for them. Because I prefer to mostly use Forsaken's cosmology, the Triat aren't quite as obviously there. The veneration of Gaea as well as the war against the Wyrm is one form of religion among the Garou. The mythology of Father Wolf, the Firstborn, etc is another religion. But its not really fully accurate to treat them as totally different religions, it's all kinda mixed together and syncretised. The exact blend is something that tends to vary from pack to pack and Tribe to Tribe. Polite Garou society tries not to dwell on the differences because that way leads to more inter-Garou conflict.

    The joke there being "Polite" Garou Society.

    Mage, honestly, is something I leave out more often than not. Mage, in my experience, does not play well with itself much less each other and certainly not with any other splat.

    Changeling is another one that gets mixed together. I import the Hedge and the True Fae into Arcadia and have both varieties of Changeling present, but I nix Banality. The Dreaming style Changelings are native inhabitants of Arcadia. The True Fae however, are also native and about as hard on the Dreaming Changelings as they are on the Lost, so they also tend to flee across the Hedge to Earth. The Dreamers are faerie souls in human bodies and the Lost are human souls in faerie bodies, which makes for a neat duality IMO. The Courts as a mystical method to make it harder for the True Fae to find them is something the Dreamers took with them when they fled Arcardia. They(mostly the Sidhe) implemented the Seelie and Unseelie Courts(which do the ritual exchange of leadership and power here). A combination of the Lost and Dreamers established the other Court systems(four seasons, four directions, etc) for a wide variety of reasons.

    Concordia and the various faerie kingdoms therein exists mainly because I fucking love that stupid map sooooo muuuch.


    Those are the main ways I mix things.

    The other splats, I never really put as much thought into. Hunter isn't one I've really read, Mummy always feels a touch niche and I don't tend to use the Underworld or Demons too often. Although I tend to lean towards Fallen over Descent, because I'm really not a fan of the God-Machine.

    How about the rest of you? Do you mix Old and New and if so, what do you do with it?




  • #2
    From a CofD-centric side, I take names and motifs from WoD to generate homebrew Legacies (the “z-splats” so to speak) for Awakening. They’re all intended to be inter-CofD-crossover material, but could easily be adapted to a wider crossover. Examples for Vampire;

    The Itarajana are a Moros (Necromancers & Alchemists) Legacy who worship Kubera and consider the ‘childer of Ravana’ ie. vampires their sworn enemy. They develop sunlight and fire magic, while selectively emulating the pros of the undead body.

    The Red Sabbath are a Thyrsus (Shamans & Ecstatics) Legacy, who study the mutative properties of vampiric blood, flesh-crafting and blood-working both themselves and entire families into post-human horrors.

    The Manus Nigrum are an Obrimos (Theurgists & Thaumaturges) Legacy, who manipulate their own Sleeper kin and descendants through sympathetic connections of the blood. They have a huge interest in vampiric blood sympathy.

    The Convention of Thorns are an Acanthus (Enchanters & Witches) Legacy, who study dhampirs, the half-mortal children of vampires, under the theory that they and their Twists of Fate are the original forms of blessed god-kings and heroes.

    The Beasts of Anarchy are a Mastigos (Warlocks & Psychonauts) Legacy, who see the Predatory Aura of vampires (strictly VtR stuff IIRC) as the ideal iconoclastic and anti-authoritarian tool, and incorporate it into their Nimbuses.




    Pretty sure there was someone who brought in a lot of Awakening and Vigil groups into their games, but I can’t remember who was it and where they posted it.
    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-09-2021, 05:33 AM.


    MtAw Homebrew:
    Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
    New 2E Legacies, expanded

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm still thinking about it, and I might end up with several different mixed settings in the end.

      Ascension stays as is. Vigil can displace Reckoning completely.

      A lot of the extra, non-splat specific stuff can be borrowed from. Also the game lines with no equivalent, like Promethan and Deviant, can just be imported over.

      Import Geist and blend it with Wraith. Enjoy uncomfortable run ins with the Giovanni/Hecata.
      Actually, Geist could blend with KotE...

      I don't know where to fit in the God Machine, but it's going somewhere. Is it an invention of the Technocracy? The Weaver? The entire World of Darkness itself? Is Gaia secretly "evil" as humans would consider it?

      Descent takes on a more "organic" vibe and merges with replaces Fallen (although there are a few techno angels around). They're the programs that run the universe from the umbra or outside it, but sometimes they get caught up in humanity and fall, taking control of an empty host and short circuiting because their new human mind can't comprehend their true selves or the knowledge they contain.

      Lost changelings could be the result of Dreaming changelings displacing their host's soul when it wakes. The fey is the fetch who thinks it's a blend of host and fairy, but really the human took their place in arcadia and experienced a living hell. Sometimes they find their way home...

      VtM can stay mostly the same, Masquiem can be interesting but ultimately I prefer the kindred of Requiem and Masquerade to be totally different creatures... Although, if you accept KotE as a different species of vampire, then there's room for the cainites and a third species of vampire. A larval stage for some kind of Abyssal owl spirit thing, clinging to the memories of its human host to stave that final transformation off.

      Werewolf... Mmm... I find the Forsaken far more tolerable than the Garou, but I prefer Apocalypse's cosmology. Plus they have Ananasi, which mitigates my bile towards the rest of the shapeshifters (Corax and Rokea get a pass).

      I don't care much for Beast, considering it redundant since other game lines already have what it offers, but it might fit into one of them. A nightmare, an umbral spirit, a neverborn, a fragment of an antediluvian or something ancient and horrifying moves into a human host and blah.
      Last edited by Rhywbeth; 08-09-2021, 07:15 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I readily mix, match, butcher, and stitch together everything and anything if I think it will be an interesting idea (to me at least or to whatever I have planned.) One of the charms for the storyteller system for me has always been that I find it easier to stitch together concepts mechanically and/or narratively and that it often can be done so with minimal kludging (not always, but more often than I'd expect.) This can extend across multiple editions or even different versions (CoD vs WoD). The main guiding factor really is 'do I have a reason to do this' and 'can I justify it with an interesting story/narrative' - quite often you can in some way, shape or form even for alot of things that are traditionally deemed 'verboten' (I love Hybrids, alot of the storyteller system doesn't.)

        The main obstacle I think is how you justify it to others, because the mix-and-match you engage in could run up against what other people think is/should be true, and these sorts of changes work best when there is a consensus. So being able to explain how/why you did it to others (especially players, if you are the Storyteller. Or the Player trying to explain it to the Storyteller and/or other players) can be important... but it is quite doable and it can produce alot of different and interesting results.

        Currently one of my favorites (especially after becoming more intimately acquainted with Mage the Awakening) is playing around with different ideas/approaches to magical systems that don't rely on just the spheres or even the Arcana. I tend to look at Sphere magic as the penultimate approach (the next step to perfection that is unifying all the disparate ideas preceeding it) but I still think that plenty of other approaches to magic (and ascension) could be equally valid (I still hold a strong affinity for Dark Ages Mage especially). I also prefer a bit more overlap between linear and dynamic magick than some settings allow (inspired by the 'struggling awake' merit, if I am honest but also my read on Hermetic philosophy from the tradition books of the same name - I like the progression from 'linear to dynamic' magic implied in the hermetic process which also suggests less discrete boundaries exist.)

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        • #5
          I only have 1st ed CoD stuff.

          I started using CoD's attribute spreads in place of the classic ones, as well as various power stats (Blood Potency, etc.) and morality/sanity/ethical ratings (Humanity, etc.).

          With Vampire, I've tried using the idea of clans getting a bonus attribute dot, and had fairly good results with it. Some of the Lancea Sanctum ideas I've incorporated into the Camarilla, along with a lot of the Invictus ideas. Likewise with the Carthians and the Anarchs. The Ordo Dracul got turned into a vampire mystery cult.

          With Werewolf, I've incorporated aspects of the Forsaken mythology (Father Wolf, the five offspring spirit wolves), as well as aspects of the Spirit-Riden/Spirit-Claimed. I've also been off and on working on the idea of incorporating ideas about the Hosts as the insect beings the Ananasi warred with.

          With Mage, I started using the Awakening Sphere rankings for Ascension, and Fate instead of Entropy. I also incorporated the factions (Adamantine Arrow, etc.) as larger political factions within the Traditions.

          With Wraith, I cut the number of Legions down to six, based largely on the groups in Geist.

          A lot of the Hunter: The Vigil factions I've incorporated in various ways, usually witch-hunter groups, but occasionally other things.


          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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          • #6
            Though i like and have played & STed both, overall i'm a "don't cross the streams" kind of guy i guess, no particular reason.

            My two consessions to mashing up things have been bringing the lore and events from Requiem for Rome and Fall of the Camarilla into Masquerade (with the "dead Julii" as a branch of the Ravnos, for an extra twist)

            And using CoD's version of the realm of the dead - but that is partly because, in my bizarro personal take of WoD, wraiths are not the shades of the dead but the dreaming, comatose, astral travelers or drug fiends and Wraith's shadowland - or the Nightmare Realm - great twisted expanses of the Dreaming resulting from extensive influence of the supernatural in human collective imagination and spirit. In fact, Changelings and Spectres might be one and the same thing described under different names/perspectives.

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            • #7
              Someone brought in Descent!Demons into the WoD as ‘awakened’ Pattern Spiders turned into shapeshifters of a sort and gone rogue. The God-Machine here is a manifestation of the Pattern Web itself. Story-wise they take the Ananasi’s place, with Agendas replacing Aspects; Tempters are Wyld-aligned bestial hedonists, Saboteurs are Wyrm-aligned reptilian iconoclasts, Integrators are Weaver-aligned biomechanical conspirators, and Inquisitors are largely neutral, insectoid brokers and mercenaries.

              The Begotten from Beast were also brought in to replace the Thallain, also porting over some of the Astral cosmology in CofD to explain the Dreaming. Here the Kithain are the children of the Bright Dream, born from Glamours and tasked with bringing uplifting inspiration to humanity. The Begotten are the children of the Dark/Primordial Dream, born from Nightmares and tasked with teaching harsh lessons to humanity. The Kithain regard the Begotten as anachronisms at best, and at least as symptoms, if not the cause, of the world spiraling down Winterwards. The Begotten claim that humanity’s pretense of wisdom and self-righteousness is the real problem, and the Kithain failed to rein them in. Meanwhile the Insatiables, who hail from ancient inhuman dreams beyond both Bright and Dark, are giddily consuming everything.
              Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-10-2021, 07:42 PM.


              MtAw Homebrew:
              Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
              New 2E Legacies, expanded

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
                Vigil can displace Reckoning completely.
                I remember when Hunter the Reckoning came out the first time.

                I had my players start as employees or clients of a old VHS rental store. They were attacked by zomebies... and PCs got imbued.

                When one of my players used a VHS cassette tape, and used CLEAVE... that was epic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rhywbeth View Post
                  I'm still thinking about it, and I might end up with several different mixed settings in the end.

                  Ascension stays as is. Vigil can displace Reckoning completely.

                  A lot of the extra, non-splat specific stuff can be borrowed from. Also the game lines with no equivalent, like Promethan and Deviant, can just be imported over.

                  Import Geist and blend it with Wraith. Enjoy uncomfortable run ins with the Giovanni/Hecata.
                  Actually, Geist could blend with KotE...

                  I don't know where to fit in the God Machine, but it's going somewhere. Is it an invention of the Technocracy? The Weaver? The entire World of Darkness itself? Is Gaia secretly "evil" as humans would consider it?

                  Descent takes on a more "organic" vibe and merges with replaces Fallen (although there are a few techno angels around). They're the programs that run the universe from the umbra or outside it, but sometimes they get caught up in humanity and fall, taking control of an empty host and short circuiting because their new human mind can't comprehend their true selves or the knowledge they contain.

                  Lost changelings could be the result of Dreaming changelings displacing their host's soul when it wakes. The fey is the fetch who thinks it's a blend of host and fairy, but really the human took their place in arcadia and experienced a living hell. Sometimes they find their way home...

                  VtM can stay mostly the same, Masquiem can be interesting but ultimately I prefer the kindred of Requiem and Masquerade to be totally different creatures... Although, if you accept KotE as a different species of vampire, then there's room for the cainites and a third species of vampire. A larval stage for some kind of Abyssal owl spirit thing, clinging to the memories of its human host to stave that final transformation off.

                  Werewolf... Mmm... I find the Forsaken far more tolerable than the Garou, but I prefer Apocalypse's cosmology. Plus they have Ananasi, which mitigates my bile towards the rest of the shapeshifters (Corax and Rokea get a pass).

                  I don't care much for Beast, considering it redundant since other game lines already have what it offers, but it might fit into one of them. A nightmare, an umbral spirit, a neverborn, a fragment of an antediluvian or something ancient and horrifying moves into a human host and blah.
                  One idea I had was making the God-Machine and the sentient Computer from Autochthonia be the same entity.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I like Vigil and Reckoning both, albeit in different ways, just like I enjoy hunters hunted (I & II), the Inquisition, Project Twilight, or even stuff like Demon Hunter X. They all represent variations to the same basic idea and different flavors (although Reckoning by virtue of being a separate game system *is* the most comprehensive) and thus have their own benefits and drawbacks depending on what it is you want to depict and the nature of the adversary you face. The main difference is that Vigil is somewhat easier to slot into other sources (Project Twilight, Hunters Hunted, the Inquisition, etc.) than Reckoning is because it is much more open ended and the sources collectively can benefit much more from the overlap (whereas Reckoning and more or less Demon Hunter X are far more 'stand alone')

                    I've also sometimes felt like Chronicles approach to things (by virtue of being more open ended) can also be used to reflect different approaches to the same thing - perhaps in a different hemipshere or country or culture than what WoD tried depicting. And a few of the more 'miscellaneous' supplements like immortals are interesting because they could offer a different (and more integrated) approach to the idea of 'Highlander in WoD) or even another variation on the Mummies.

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                    • #11
                      I don't mix things together frequently, usually I play one or the other, because they have very different proposals. But I'm by no means against it, and I would like to comment on your ideas, and maybe throw in some things I would do, and maybe even will do.

                      But to me it would be a matter of first choosing among them which meta-setting would be the main one, what I want for the final mix to look like, since they're really about very different things.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      I flipped the ages of them(Camarilla being essentially younger than the Invictus)
                      You didn't. The Camarilla from VtM is newer than the Invictus is purported to be and has nothing to do with the Camarilla from VtR. I would make the Invictus a lot more secretive than it is in VtR so it could be the more direct servants of the Inner Circle.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      The Sabbat is largely the same, mostly because I don't know too much in depth about their lore.

                      ...

                      The Lancea is present mostly unchanged as a largely Christian Heresy that help the more religious vampires to not off themselves in response to their new condition.
                      A little bit of VtM lore: this is the Sabbat in a nutshell. Although their methods inspired the creation of VII in VtR, their organization and ideology were mostly translated as the Lancea et Sanctum. They're a Catholic heresy whose theology basically boils down to vampires being God's Monsters and the undead nature being something you should revel in, not be ashamed of, because you're meant to be a bogeyman. Many believed Caine was an exemplar, but that was mostly besides the point, they all agreed that the Antediluvians were basically traitors to be hunted and killed.

                      The whole of the sect was far more complex than that, and they accepted non-Christians as long as they followed the core creed of the sect, but their leadership was extremely Catholic, with many high-ranking Lasombra being actual priests (Lasombra tended to be Roman Catholic and very religious, Tzimisce tended to be Orthodox Catholic and more secular). In this sense, I think you could make the Lancea an inner sect within the Sabbat as you did with the Invictus in the Camarilla.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      The Anarchs and the Carthians are debatably merged together as well.
                      Fair, but there IS a distinction that you may want to play.

                      Carthians lean heavily into making experimental governments and collectivism, while Anarchs put a lot of emphasis on personal freedom and individuality. They have similarities in their sources and viewpoints, but few Carthians would profess Anarchism directly and those who would would focus on Commune-style society, while most Anarchs would want a lack of formal government, or at most a very hands-off approach.

                      Either way they could agree more often than not in most issues and work together when up against The Man.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      The Ordo and the Circle of the Crone
                      Well, the Tremere are already far similar to the Ordo, take what you want from this. They can exist as an independent entity or as part of any of the sects, it works well either way. The Camarilla have a practical approach to sorcery and the secular tone of the Ordo bodes them well (the party line is that there is no such a thing as Caine and Antediluvians, although it isn't a crime per se to believe in such ridiculous superstitions), but if the Ordo is willing to pay service to the Sabbat's way it would greatly benefit from the sect's lack of limits on human and vampiric experimentation.

                      And the Circle would depend a lot on its precise religious views. The Sabbat is more interested on your disposition to fight the Ancients, while the Camarilla is more interested in your disposition to follow their laws. Both would accept allegiance, and even membership, from vampires like the Circle if the benefits outweigh any eventual problems. The Camarilla would be the more different, but also willing to turn a blind eye for some indiscretions here and there if you clean after yourself.

                      My personal take is that both would be independent, but their relationship with Camarilla and Sabbat wouldn't be so clear-cut.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      For Werewolf, I tend towards using mostly the Shadow and its spirit ecology over the Umbra, although elements of the later exist. Werewolves are the Garou, but things are a bit messy for them.
                      Hey, what makes Garou, Garou, is far more the Triat than their list of tribes. Not that I dislike your take, I actually prefer to take out the overwhelming presence of the War Against the Wyrm too, so go for it.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      Mage, honestly, is something I leave out more often than not. Mage, in my experience, does not play well with itself much less each other and certainly not with any other splat.
                      Can't totally agree with, can't blame you either. I would personally do something similar to what you did to Werewolf and lean more on Awakening's cosmology and all that, but just not doing it is ok.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      Changeling
                      I liked what you did, although I would make it very differently.

                      Personally I would keep Banality for the Dreamers and keep then as what they are in CtD: The True Fae. I would ditch the True Fae of CtL (not that I dislike them, mind you) and keep Dreamers as the responsible for the kidnappings and whatnot. With this I would make this kidnapping thing far more nuanced, since not all Dreamers are crazy assholes, but many still are. And some still exist in Arcadia and in the Dreaming without having ever taken on human bodies.

                      That said, I would copy your duality with a little twist: instead of kidnapped humans leaving a Fetch, sometimes they leave a Changeling. This is what happens when the Arcadian Sidhe (using the 20th years rules) take a host, anyway, since always, and could also be the first step of the Changeling Way, your first body must be snatched still. I would let the Changeling Way work as normal, and sometimes the kidnappers just make a regular Fetch.

                      One new avenue to explore with this is that with True Fae being so nearer, the creation of a Lost may be less traumatic sometimes. It would be possible to have Lost that were never in Arcadia to begin with, and maybe even became what they are through negotiation, either as a price for something or even because they wanted to. That would make for a more politically complex game and tone down the trauma/horror element, expanding the possible themes and genres.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      Hunter isn't one I've really read, Mummy always feels a touch niche and I don't tend to use the Underworld or Demons too often.
                      Hunter isn't a big deal. CoD Hunter is simple and WoD Hunter only makes sense if the world is ending.

                      Mummy feels niche because it is. Both versions have very particular play styles and aren't common in the world anyways.

                      Wraiths and Sin Eaters aren't even the same thing, so you would have to decide what to do with the cosmology itself far more than what to do with the splats (they can coexist as such no problem).

                      Demons I don't know, didn't read the Descent yet.

                      Originally posted by Nervaqus987 View Post
                      what do you do with it?
                      Personally when I mix something I borrow some rules, but I focus on mixing the cosmology, not the splats, with a few exceptions.

                      So I would have Cainites being a different kind of vampire, but probably share the same sects with Requiem's vamps. Garou and Uratha probably wouldn't see each other much as kin, not more than both see spirits as kin, but also wouldn't be in each others throats by default. Changeling I would go with the above version, with two very distinct fairy societies. Hunter I would ditch the Reckoning, unless it was an End-of-the-World chronicle. Mummy I don't know, Wraith and Geist are easy to coexist. Demons from God and God-Machine would probably have some limited contact and maybe a little kinship, and more importantly, God's Fallen would have a hand on the God-Machine, either by just knowing its origin and nature, or by it being actually an Earthbound (maybe the Computer in Autochthonia).

                      Only Mage I wouldn't probably ever work like that, except if this was a very specific plot point. I would choose one type and just import interesting groups from the other, but fully translated.


                      #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
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                      • #12
                        In my merger, the Imbued from Hunter: the Reckoning are “merely” an example of Deviants (with the
                        Messengers as a Conspiracy that remade them); and the various Year of the Hunter factions become Hunter: the Vigil compacts and conspiracies.


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                        • #13
                          As a general rule of thumb, I prefer to start with the chronicles of Darkness as a baseline and retrofit elements from the world of Darkness onto it. This is because Chronicles is both more crossover friendly and more flexible than world of darkness is; also, nearly everything in the world of Darkness has some sort of counterpart in The Chronicles of darkness, but the reverse is not true. Though the “parallels” aren't always obvious, and can sometimes be rather tenuous.


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                          • #14
                            That is quite true.. its much easier to import WoD into CoD than vice versa. But I'm also perversely fond of doing things the hard way - part challenge, part stubborness so I'm biased towards the latter.

                            But if someone were interested in really trying to mix the two using CoD as your baseline really is the best way I have to admit.

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