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Cyberdog/Mage-to-Android; How far is too far?

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  • Cyberdog/Mage-to-Android; How far is too far?

    So I was recently thinking about a Metis Glasswalker Theurge, with a deformity that causes him to be incredibly weak and unhealthy. Thus he seeks to replace all his flesh with Cyberfetishes. Standard Tech-Priest/Cyberman/Nekron/Metallo stuff. start basic with General Grevious/Gunther Herman type stuff and work towards liquid metal nanomachine nonsense. I had the same idea when I first looked at mage, only with mage, enhancements this has it's own background and many of the basics are listed. With Changing breeds (I love Ratkin and Engineers are interestingly suited for this) you've only really got the Fetish background and a few examples that are more additions than replacement. In terms of Balance, taking all your "natural" points out of Physicals and then adding a ton of "unnatural" points into physicals is questionable. Like if you could just have five dots of strength by putting in four dots of Background that'd be... thoughts on this?


    I have seen one sample Metis character who's weakness was technology dependence. So getting around your OG Metis weakness with Tech shouldn't be too much of a problem. Of course, Garou hate Metis who try to get around their deformities by cutting off mangled limbs and removing horns; being a techno-abomination in a society where half the population gets iffy around iron is also an invitation for trouble.


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  • #2
    The problem is thinking too strictly on what a dot in your sheet means. A character with functional mechanic arm with Strength 5 isn't a character with a disability and Str 2 and an added implant. They're just a character with Str 5 and flavor text.

    You could and should try to find interesting options as BG and stuff for your character, maybe even an actual Mage to make those things for you. But things will get a lot easier for working out the concept when you get used to look just for the right effects and reflavor things.

    Unfortunately Werewolf won't give you much more regarding this without heavier ST fiat or importing systems from other games. In-character it could be good for you to look for a Mage to help you.


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    • #3
      I would have thought that any werewolf who willingly replaced any part of their body with a 'cyber' part (regardless of game mechanic) would be rapidly outcast from Pack and Tribe. How would you justify such a sea-change? Or is the werewolf a renegade already?

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      • #4
        Glass walker... you know some of them dye their wolf-form hair neon colours right?
        His excuse would be his health. He's weak, and he might suggest he's deteriorating. He imagined his lungs would stop working, so he replaced them. He imagined his eyes stopped working, so he replaced them. Maybe his Metis condition has effected his mental health, or maybe his mental health was impacted by his bed-riddled days before the first change. With no physicals and a naturally unhealthy appearance, there'll be plenty of points to put into charisma and manipulation in order to deflect criticism.
        Now, Ideally, he's not going to show off his cybernetics (at least not until his ego inflates to the point that he's gotta show them off) but rather he'll use some kind of Terminator-like Flesh sleeve. It's more to keep the veil, fit in and to show he doesn't hold flesh in contempt than it is to lie to other garou.


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        • #5
          Yeah, Glass Walkers do this sometimes. It will cause a lot of reactions, no doubt, but isn't necessarily an insta-expulsion from the tribe. After all, its already about 20 years since the the CyberDogs scandal, it will raise a lot of eye-brows but will be worth of watching instead of just killing.

          Dogstar, the CyberDogs are an entire (if small) Glass Walker Camp whose whole shtick is to do exactly that, and they exist openly within the tribe. They involved themselves in quite a scandal during their heyday at the turn of the millennium, due to some shit with Lupines, but the camp as a whole survived the crisis and still exists.


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          • #6
            Though, it's also worth noting that according to the Book of the Weaver, Attribute-enhancing prosthetics and enhancements are far less effective for Garou and other half-spirit types (boosting your Strength by 3 would be a Level 5 fetish, possibly even Level 6) than for beings that just get it as a Device.

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            • #7
              Body enhancements in M20 have a $ by them, denoting that they cost twice as much as usual backgrounds. For mages, it's fine to throw eight background points into getting a level 4 enhancement, but for werewolf... level 8 fetishes can't exist.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Glass walker... you know some of them dye their wolf-form hair neon colours right?
                His excuse would be his health. He's weak, and he might suggest he's deteriorating. He imagined his lungs would stop working, so he replaced them. He imagined his eyes stopped working, so he replaced them. Maybe his Metis condition has effected his mental health, or maybe his mental health was impacted by his bed-riddled days before the first change. With no physicals and a naturally unhealthy appearance, there'll be plenty of points to put into charisma and manipulation in order to deflect criticism.
                Now, Ideally, he's not going to show off his cybernetics (at least not until his ego inflates to the point that he's gotta show them off) but rather he'll use some kind of Terminator-like Flesh sleeve. It's more to keep the veil, fit in and to show he doesn't hold flesh in contempt than it is to lie to other garou.

                It's your game so you can do what you like but I think that this really breaks the standard lore - there's a huge difference between dying your hair and replacing your lungs. I'd think that 99% of Garou would assume that he's a wyrm beast and kill him outright. I'd also think that most Garou would rather see a weak, deteriorating member of the pack die than preserve them via technological means. Law of the jungle.

                You asked how far is too far:

                Prosthetic type limb - tolerable, especially if it's for fighting
                Anything that starts with 'cyber' - not good
                Last edited by Dogstar; 09-01-2021, 02:03 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                  It's your game so you can do what you like but I think that this really breaks the standard lore
                  Except it doesn't. The CyberDogs are a canonical thing. They simply are.

                  You can argue that 99% of werewolves outside the GWs would think that. It is reasonable and I think most people here would agree. You can argue that even inside the GWs this would at least raise eyebrows more than 90% of the time outside of the CyberDogs camp, and that's perfectly supported by the canon, the CyberDogs do raise a lot of eyebrows.

                  But to say it breaks lore? Sorry pal, but they're basic Glass Walker lore and have been for a long time. Even 'cause cybernetics aren't a Wyrm's thing, they're a Weaver's thing, and a lot of werewolves know the difference (and still don't trust).


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                  • #10
                    Book of the Weaver is your friend here. I would suggest building your Bionics/Cybernetics with the Fetishes found there. Remember that it needs to be able to change with you which makes it cost double, or rather halves the benefits. Also remember that circumventing your Metis deformity this way is a cause for great Honor loss.

                    This is also a good way towards hearing the One Song and falling completely to the Weaver.

                    And like Dogstar mentioned some of the more foolish Garou could easily mistake such a character for a Wyrm beast but anyone with a little more connections to Glass Walkers or experience with the Weaver should see it as Weaver Taint instead. This generally is not quite the death sentence as Wyrm Taint, except amongst the Red Talons, but it is still suspicious and will make the character more or less outcast except amongst the Glass Walkers of course.

                    But like said this could lead to you becoming Drone eventually.

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                    • #11
                      And yes like monteparnas mentioned this does not break the Lore. There is a Garou with cybernetic Arms and torso in the cover of the Book of the Weaver. And as mentioned this is exactly what the CyberDogs are all about.

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                      • #12
                        From the wiki as I don't have the book:
                        In 1999, it was discovered that one of the camps within the tribe, the CyberDogs, had indulged in cybernetic experimentation with unwilling Lupus. The situation quickly escalated into violence, resulting in a near-extermination of the camp
                        It looks like even amongst Glasswalkers this sort of cybernetics is seen as too much. As an NPC they would be interesting but as a PC you would have a very hard time fitting in with any sort of group that likes to play to the lore.

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                        • #13
                          I think that's because they kidnapped lupus and forced gruesome surgery upon them, and they went crazy and fell to the weaver. The Cybernetics are really just a bystander there.

                          So why was Sodom Destroyed?
                          Well because it was a police state full of rapists.
                          You're wrong, it was because those rapists wanted man on man love. We can only reasonably conclude that God hates gays.
                          Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-04-2021, 12:47 PM.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dogstar View Post
                            It looks like even amongst Glasswalkers this sort of cybernetics is seen as too much. As an NPC they would be interesting but as a PC you would have a very hard time fitting in with any sort of group that likes to play to the lore.
                            Dude, no. Reread that sentence, you'll easily note that:

                            1- The camp existed for untold years with cybernetics and all and it was no big deal. They WERE seen as at least weird, but were mostly left to themselves and recognized as Tribe members.

                            2- The camp was nearly exterminated because of freaking experiment with essentially enslaved Lupus Garou, it doesn't matter if they were implanting cybernetics, trees, or tumors to try and cure cancer.

                            3- The camp still exists because once the enslavement-for-forced-experimentation situation was dealt with, there was no point in stopping them from doing cybernetics on themselves, that was their real main thing since always and no one cared.

                            You have all the right to not like it. I don't, by the way, I never liked it even in Mage, and my favorite Convention is Iteration X by far. You have all the right to think most Garou would think it is akin to Wyrm-taint and all the right to do so on your game.

                            But don't shit on other's games that way. You don't own the lore, the books do, and the books pretty much made Garou with cybernetics a thing, our opinions be damned. Your group not linking it have ZERO to do with lore.

                            MWIS wanted a mechanics-based opinion, despite the title, and this is a thing. How other Garou will react is the ST's problem and how the group will react is their problem and no one here was asked about that. MWIS already recognized all the in-game consequences coming. Stop trying to own the game just 'cause you don't like CyberDogs.


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                            • #15
                              monteparnas What's your opinion on Die Ultimae then? Glass walkers rocking power armour and 20mm, accompanied by Imperial Guardsman Elite kinfolk mercenaries. I love em, but my players thought it was weird when they worked alongside such a pack.

                              (yeah, you're right, I could really have gone for a more mechanically inclined title)


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