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  • #46
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    Wait... What the fuck? They took out the Imbued? So what the hell happens to their connecting with the Kuei-Jin and the fact that they were granted their powers by the remnants of the Celestial Chorus? This entire 5th has been a dumpster fire. Who actually wanted this?

    I knew it was a real red-flag that they seemingly did a H5 right after V5, instead of W5. It's easy to churn out since this is just going to be regular Hunters that are essentially the ones from Vigil.. It doesn't require much work, no real need to re-observe the past material to make sure everything aligns-up right, and it gives more fodder for these nu-writers to just stuff things from CofD without being original. I have nothing against CofD, mind you, but this is just how it seems to me.

    Like jesus, I wonder how the minority amount of fans for HtR line even feel about this.. if they even still care about this franchise anymore. It just makes me shudder of how they're going to massacre WtO5 if they ever get around to it... lol

    And most of these dumb decisions stem from the platitude that, "everything must be simplified" for the so-called "new players who are just streaming into WoD (lol)". Why must everything be simplified just because someone is new to the franchise? I literally only got into oWoD in 2017 and consumed a large part of the material within a couple of months to understand most of things in this formerly great setting. Making everything reduced will not entice new people, because then people who will look into it.. won't be interested in it at all.

    Or maybe these unnecessary reductions are due to them not even knowing the past material or not even bothering to review it.

    I didn't really got much into Hunter the Reckoning, but the thing that appealed to me the most, was that all the Hunters were average regular people. Then out of nowhere they gain these supernatural abilities and now have a burden of fighting against the various other splats in the WoD Universe. It reminded me somewhat like the Mother series, akin to how Ness was just a regular Middle Schooler, but now he suddenly gains psychic powers and has to fight an interdimensional all-consuming evil.

    Now they're just mundane boring Hunters... I'm sure some people may like that angle.. but the major appeal to me in WoD is the supernatural elements of the setting (obviously) mixed with the intrigues of how the players can interact with it and grow whatever supernatural abilities they have. Now the Imbued are an eliminated factor in this. I don't see how this Hunter Fifth Edition will possibly appeal to me now.
    I've seen people who didn't care for HtR and preferred HH and HtV expressing displeasure at this as well, not because it's something they don't want but because they too feel it's an insult to the HtR fans who loved playing the Imbued and/or that they are taking away options from players which is never a popular thing.

    Not helped that it doesn't feel like we can talk to the WoD Devs. While they do have a Youtube Channel and a Discord, there isn't to my knowledge an official forum where people could express their feelings and potentially hear back from the Devs. Instead, it really feels like it's a one way street with them telling us what's going on and the most we can do is talk to PR people and maybe if there's enough of us it might get back to those people directly involved in the projects. Here in the OPP forums, OPP Devs can and often do show up, responding to peoples' comments and questions. It feels like OPP listens to us, it's fans. They even give out manuscripts of their projects to their KS backers and will listen to our comments on it. WoD on the other hand, doesn't. It feels like WoD is doing their thing, deciding to only periodically tell us what it's doing and expecting us to just cheer them on for it.

    Huh? HtR had little to do (if almost nothing) with D:tF. Most of the background of the Imbued was a mystery, but there was an overarching connecting/theming toward KotE if anything else.
    If I remember right, the Messengers are tied to the last two angels on Earth, the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen. They're the ones that started the Imbuing. But again, that's something the Imbued don't really know and could be left vague without any issues.


    Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
      Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen
      They are Angels/High Spirits from the Celestial Bureaucracy, made by the August Personage of Jade. They have little to nothing to do with what went on with D:tF. The source material itself, HtR, was the one to even tie-in these plot hints in the first place.
      Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-16-2021, 05:27 PM.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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      • #48
        Incredibly disappointed with this turn of events and even more so with the expectation that any vocal dissidents to these decisions should roll over and accept whatever nebulous amalgamation of trite buzzwords and soft-gaslighting the spin doctors at the marketing department are going to be cooking up for us.

        Especially because...we've had Hunter's Hunted for nearly three decades now!

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        • #49
          Originally posted by scifirabbi View Post


          I think the simple answer is yes.. and no. Yes this looks much closer to hunter the vigil than it does to reckoning as it was. Its pretty clear that the WoD5 range is part reboot of OWoD and part part comic book style multiversal post crisis merging of universes in that it is adapting both mechanical and thematic elements from NWoD/CoD and folding them into this new continuity. This seems to be a good example of that. They have clearly decided (perhaps with good reason, perhaps not) that something more akin to H:tV fits better into the new continuity than H:tR and so they are folding that into the new universe. My guess is this is far less about older gamers who love V20 or H:tR or even H:tV than it is about expanding the universe for newer gamers who have entered this world via V5. So depending on how they do it, this will either be a great melding of to NWoD hunter ideas into WoD5, pleasing new (and some old) players who want to play the mortal flipside of the V5 world they have already been playing in, or a monstrous frankenstein (and not in a good way!) that will please no one. I'm open to the possibilities and will happily play this new game and draw on what i like from H:tV and thus get the best of both worlds!
          I really Like this opinion.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
            Huh? HtR had little to do (if almost nothing) with D:tF. Most of the background of the Imbued was a mystery, but there was an overarching connecting/theming toward KotE if anything else.
            Demon really liked to shit in everyone's backyard explaining how they knew the real scoop and everyone else was just deluding themselves.



            What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Asmodai View Post

              Demon really liked to shit in everyone's backyard explaining how they knew the real scoop and everyone else was just deluding themselves.
              if they were so smart how come I bound one with prime and spirit?

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              • #52
                And to go even further with how ridiculous this all is... imagine all the wasted Creedbooks, all the signs/code/sigils, setting supplements, now just going down the drain since the Imbued are being removed for this arbitrary unexplained reason..


                Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                  if [demons] were so smart how come I bound one with prime and spirit?
                  The funny thing? If you listen to real life exorcists; they’ll confirm in fact that demons are actually really really stupid. They’re stubborn and keep trying the same (admittedly pretty successful on the unaware) tactics against people again and again and just can’t seem to innovate or adapt at all.

                  Sin dulls the intellect they say and angels/demons are being of pure intellect so the demons are especially affected by this, being more like beasts of low cunning who hunt easy prey, but no match for a well-formed conscience.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by scifirabbi View Post
                    My guess is this is far less about older gamers who love V20 or H:tR or even H:tV than it is about expanding the universe for newer gamers who have entered this world via V5.
                    I keep seeing this but it's never actually explained on how this matches any of the facts in evidence.

                    What does cutting the Imbued have to do with expanding the universe for newer gamers? What's the evidence, at all, that nWW first, and now Paradox, are actually making the games more new player friendly? V5 is full of stuff that calls back to the older games that new people aren't going to understand without going online to look or asking old fans about. V5 kept Generation because of VtM lore instead of just getting rid of the idea and swapping in VtR's Blood Potency alone, forcing a clunky compromise of both layered together.

                    I would buy this if the decisions had any clear indication of actually accomplishing this goal.

                    Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
                    I don't think it's a bad idea to introduce the ideas and options of that into classic WoD.
                    And importantly... the only think that Vigil does that wasn't already in cWoD for playable hunters? Having it all in one book. The cWoD books were full of groups that slot into the broad "hunter" idea, but were scattered all over the games, and had varying degrees of support for being playable.

                    Slashers are actually HtV's bigger innovation here as something that the cWoD never quite did as distinctly... and they weren't even in HtV 1e's core.

                    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                    if they were so smart how come I bound one with prime and spirit?
                    If only binding a real world gaming manual were as easy.

                    Also, DtF demons aren't really biblical demons. It's Paradise Lost the RPG.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                      They Angels/High Spirits from the Celestial Bureaucracy, made by the August Personage of Jade. They have little to nothing to do with what went on with D:tF. The source material itself, HtR, was the one to even tie-in these plot hints in the first place.
                      Actually the DtF Book of Nod equivalent, Days of Fire connects the pair to DtF as well.

                      [72]
                      So great, then, the lamentation of the earth
                      That two Angels shall turn their ears and hear.
                      One a woman of scarlet lights
                      The other a beast of sheltered shadows.
                      They shall spark, and breathe, and illuminate
                      And those who feel, and hear, and see, shall be infused
                      These Bright Shiners come forth to witness, in the last days and final night.
                      Obviously we're talking about an in-universe book which has it's own questionable legitimacy but it was supposedly written by Lucifer and he would the one to know who's an angel and who's not, especially since he was the only Fallen not subjected to the Abyss and the memory loss and distortion it caused. And he calls them Angels so we have to assume he's talking about his fellow Angels and not some other kind of entity.

                      And while it rather poetic and flowery, it's pretty clear that the verse is talking the Scarlet Queen, the Ebon Dragon and the Imbued. At the same time, the verses before and after this one talk about events tied to the Rev Ed like the 6GM, the Red Star, the Perfect Metis and the Last Daughter of Eve. So yeah, it's pretty clear that they are talking about the Rev Ed era there which includes the Imbued.

                      As for the August Personage of Jade, most who have studied the WoD lore have assumed/concluded that God and the August Personage of Jade are one and the same and by that same token, the Celestial Bureaucracy and the Hierarchy of Angels are two names for the same thing. In fact, the White Wolf Wiki's page on God (WOD) as them as one and the same.


                      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Problem with that is, like I said before and alluded to by other posters, D:tF retrocon'd stuff from other lines without even properly understanding them or just took stuff, that in doing so messed up the lore from other lines as well. (Accounting HtR already per this post alone, WtO, WtA, CtD, and MtAs were effected by this too)

                        Not once did Lucifer make any note of knowing about the Ten Thousand Immortals (the precursors of the Kuei-Jin before they got punished by the August Personage of Jade) or the Yama Kings, at all in D:tF; neither did any of the other Elohim/Abrahamic Angels either. For D:tF to have any tie-in with H:tR, it had to at least recognize some lore from KotE, because HtR drew heavily from that with numerous hints throughout many Creedbooks.. but they never did. And again, with D:tF being the last gameline before cWoD ended, it had troves of material to just riff-off and shove into its line just to give more "legitimacy" so to speak.. It relied more on retroconning, than coming up with its own truly unique identity.

                        So it just listing off a bunch of things that were going on in Revised doesn't really mean anything.. because D:tF never mentions anything about the Imbued or the Wan Xian (who were the precursors of the Kuei-Jin) at all or the Age of Legends. There is no Lucifer in KotE, no Angel Houses, no Adam and Eve, and most importantly there is no Cain mentioned anywhere in KotE at all. Cain in D:tF, was the catalyst for Lucifer and his followers to begin fighting the "Heavenly Host" for real due to "first murder". With that, the rebel Elohim didn't have to "metaphysically hold their punches (or um, blades to be accurate)" from the shockwaves from Cain committing the first murder.

                        Meanwhile, before D:tF was even a speck of a thought; The Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen were material that began with KotE. If you read the book, the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen made the Wan Xian/Ten Thousand Immortals to fight monsters and the Yama Kings, after seeing them preying on humanity all of a sudden. Looking at the central conflict in D:tF, however, the rebel Elohim/Abrahamic angels get in trouble with their God for interfering with humanity in the first place... see how contradictory it is?

                        If the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Queen, reportedly with the logic/claim from D:tF about them being the last remaining "Abrahamic Angels"; could possibly be accurate, when the Angels/Elohim described to be loyal to the Abrahamic God in D:tF, fought against the rebel Elohim to stop them from interfering with humanity? I know I sound like a broken record, but I just wanted to double reiterate so this point can get across on why D:tF was badly organized in its lore and not caring about what material it processed into its gameline. The Messengers have nothing do with D:tF Angels, because from their earliest activity, they were literally giving humans supernatural powers to fight other splats; which is a direct contradiction from what Angels were doing in D:tF.

                        The Ten Thousand Immortals are never even mentioned once when the Demons were waging war against the Heavenly Host at all. None of the Demons from D:tF even know a single thing about the Yama Kings. They don't even know the Middle or High Umbra even exist. It also breaks the notion that the August Personage of Jade and the Abrahamic God described in D:tF are the same at all. If the logic is that the August Personage of Jade and Abrahamic God are the same, why did they imprison the rebel Elohim but left the Yama Kings alone to remain active?

                        The Imbued from Hunter: The Reckoning were supposed to be the-coming-back of the Wan Xian, who were the precursors of the Kuei-Jin; the uncorrupted, uncursed versions who were granted a grand spiritual commission to rid the world of monsters. They're one of the same, just from different ages of time.

                        I think this is why the Imbued were ultimately cut. A lot of writers in WoD seem to have a grudge with ANYTHING related to or greatly connected with KotE, so much to this point they're literally cutting out the focal splat from their own game.. and literally replacing them... again, this 5th edition is.. not good.
                        Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-16-2021, 10:35 PM.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                          Problem with that is, like I said before and alluded to by other posters, D:tF retrocon'd stuff from other lines without even properly understanding them or just took stuff, that in doing so messed up the lore from other lines as well. (Accounting HtR already per this post alone, WtO, WtA, CtD, and MtAs were effected)

                          Not once did Lucifer make any note of knowing about the Ten Thousand Immortals (the precursors of the Kuei-Jin before they got punished by the August Personage of Jade) or the Yama Kings, at all in D:tF; neither did any of the other Elohim/Abrahamic Angels either. For D:tF to have any tie-in with H:tR, it had to at least recognize some lore from KotE, because HtR drew heavily from that with numerous hints throughout many Creedbooks.. but they never did. And again, with D:tF being the last gameline before cWoD ended, it had troves of material to just riff-off and shove into its line just to give more "legitimacy" so to speak.. It relied more on retroconning, than coming up with its own truly unique identity.
                          That's because they tend not to reference the creation myths of other lines in their material. Even when Caine, the First Murder and his transformation into a vampire is brought up in DtF it's different from how it's presented in VtM.

                          For example in the previously mentioned Days of Fire, while it roughly starts the same with Caine murdering Abel for... well differing reasons depending on the source, what happens next is different. Caine starts slandering God and basically causes not just the birth of murder and lies but sparks the war between the Rebel Angels and the Loyalists. Likewise Caine's transformation into a vampire stares similarly to other versions with God and the Angels offering forgiveness for his sins only for Caine to reject it but ends differently. Instead of Caine being cursed for his rejections of their offers, Caine rejects Gods and his own Humanity resulting in his own transformation into a vampire. There's no Seven-fold Curse or Lillith in the story.

                          Likewise the book speaks the Garou and Mages but doesn't really talk about their origins at all. Well beyond the Mages getting a vague passage about the first humans to look at the world around them and wonder how it works.

                          Would you expect VtM to explain the backstories of WtA, MtAs, CtD and WtO? No. You'd want VtM to talk about it's own backstory. So why should DtF be obliged to explain the backstories of all the other lines? Especially when it's established in the first or second chapter of the Rulebook that memories of the Fallen are damaged because of their imprisonment in the Abyss.

                          So it just listing off a bunch of things that were going on in Revised doesn't really mean anything.. because D:tF never mentions anything about the Imbued or the Wan Xian (who were the precursors of the Kuei-Jin) at all or the Age of Legends. There is no Lucifer in KotE, no Angel Houses, no Adam and Eve, and most importantly there is no Cain mentioned anywhere in KotE at all. Cain in D:tF, was the catalyst for Lucifer and his followers to begin fighting the "Heavenly Host" for real due to "first murder". With that, the rebel Elohim didn't have to "metaphysically hold their punches (or um, blades to be accurate)" from the shockwaves from Cain committing the first murder.
                          Yes and at the same time, none of that happens in VtM either yet Caine is vital to it's lore.

                          Meanwhile, before D:tF was even a speck of a thought; The Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen were material that began with KotE. If you read the book, the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen made the Wan Xian/Ten Thousand Immortals to fight monsters and the Yama Kings, after seeing them preying on humanity all of a sudden. Looking at the central conflict in D:tF, however, the rebel Elohim/Abrahamic angels get in trouble with their for interfering with humanity in the first place... see how contradictory it is?
                          It's almost like every WoD gameline has it's own idea as to the origin of the world and everything, ideas that don't line up with other games. Almost like the members of every line believe they are right and everyone else is wrong. Almost like this mythic age was supposed to be mythic and barely understood by modern day people. Or in the case of the Fallen, beings that were a torturous state for eons and have had their minds have been damaged by it.

                          If the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Queen, reportedly with the logic/claim from D:tF about them being the last remaining "Abrahamic Angels"; could possibly be accurate, when the Angels/Elohim described to be loyal to the Abrahamic God in D:tF, fought against the rebel Elohim to stop them from interfering with humanity? I know I sound like a broken record, but I just wanted to double reiterate so this point to get across on why D:tF was badly organized in its lore and not caring about what material it processed into its gameline. The Messengers have nothing do with D:tF Angels, because from their earliest activity, they were literally giving humans supernatural powers to fight other splats; which is a direct contradiction from what Angels were doing in D:tF.
                          Because there's implications that God has disappeared much like how it's believed that August Personage of Jade will disappear for the Sixth Age. Certainly the Angels aside from those two are gone from Earth. In fact, in the HtR Storyteller's Companion which lays all this out, straight up says that God has disappeared.

                          Also in that same section where it talks about what's behind the Imbuing, it never once refers to the August Personage or the Celestial Bureaucracy. Instead it uses 'god' or 'the Creator of All' while their servants are simply referred to as the 'Ministers'. In fact, it goes on to separate them from the Messengers, making them the agents of the Ministers carrying out their instruction on Earth.

                          The whole section is presented in an extremely barebones (intentionally I suspect as WoD always disliked giving a 100% concrete answer to these kinds of things) to the point that we don't know where the Queen and Dragon fall into this. Are they the Ministers or the Messengers? We don't know.

                          As for why, the STComp also explains this. The Ministers know the end is coming and cannot be stopped. They are Imbuing people in hopes of making the upcoming apocalyptic age as short as possible. They know it's against God's will but without God to direct, they don't know what else to do.

                          The Ten Thousand Immortals are never even mentioned once when the Demons were waging war against the Heavenly Host at all. None of the Demons from D:tF even know a single thing about the Yama Kings. They don't even know the Middle or High Umbra even exist. It also breaks the notion that the August Personage of Jade and the Abrahamic God described in D:tF are the same at all. If the logic is that the August Personage of Jade and Abrahamic God are the same, why did they imprison the rebel Elohim but left the Yama Kings alone to remain active?
                          Probably because as DtF presents it, God basically erased the existence of the war from Humanity and the Earth. The Ten Thousand Immortals likely arose after all that.

                          By that same token, the Yama Kings didn't exist back then because their original purpose didn't exist back then. You see the original Yama Kings were created to purify the souls of the deceased for reincarnation. Something that Humanity didn't need until after the Age of Wrath as prior to that Humanity was of a more simple nature.

                          The Imbued from Hunter: The Reckoning were supposed to be the-coming-back of the Wan Xian, who were the precursors of the Kuei-Jin; the uncorrupted, uncursed versions who were granted a grand spiritual commission to rid the world of monsters. They're one of the same, just from different ages of time.

                          I think this is why the Imbued were ultimately cut. A lot of writers in WoD seem to have a grudge with ANYTHING related to or greatly connected with KotE, so much to this point they're literally cutting out the most focal splats from their own game.. and literally replacing them... again, this 5th edition is.. not good.
                          Except not really, not as much as VtM was connected to KotE. Like I've said, the connections between KotE and HtR are all behind the scenes, things that we the player know but the PCs are completely unaware of. VtM on the other hand had the Cainites and Wan Kuei clashing over the years. The Week of Nightmares saw [Ravnos] fighting a trio of Elder Wan Kuei.

                          The only time it comes up in HtR is in the Storyteller's Companion, a book for Storytellers, in a barebones explanation that never once says August Personage of Jade, Celestial Bureaucracy, Scarlet Queen, Ebon Dragon or Wan Kuei.

                          The story as we know it was pieced together by readers from multiple books across several lines rather than a single official source. They could have pushed all that back into the murky shadows, taking an approach like with M20 and it's metaplot with a sidebox saying maybe that's what's going on, maybe it's not.

                          Hell, they could have played into the Imbueds' own ignorance on these matters and gave us a bunch of conflicting stories on their origins on what they believe is going on.


                          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Alright.. let's get into this.

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            Would you expect VtM to explain the backstories of WtA, MtAs, CtD and WtO? No.
                            Because.. by the simple margin that VTM was the first game in the WoD franchise, it makes sense that it didn't go into the backstories of the other lines. And every game after it tried to be its own thing but at the same time left breadcrumbs to fit against each other nicely, albeit with some components being more incompatible with other things. This is completely different to how DtF barged in, didn't care for what it attempting to tie-in to, and hilariously left plotholes in its own line by doing so and messed with the lore of other lines in the same breadth.

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            So why should DtF be obliged to explain the backstories of all the other lines? Especially when it's established in the first or second chapter of the Rulebook that memories of the Fallen are damaged because of their imprisonment in the Abyss.
                            ....Because it deliberately reached over and hard-powered through material of things it didn't understand in a really awkward way? It also did have some obligation to actually be a real good wrap-up splat for Classic World of Darkness, explaining how in an actual awesome and original way all the splats tie-in into eachother (its literally a splat about the apparent way the WoD was formed... you'd think they'd pull all the stops to incorporate all the splats of the past years with some moderate write-ups, but no.. and the only time other splats are used or mentioned, is to prop-up and remind you that this still WoD, and not some Book of Genesis fanfiction) .

                            There is a recurrent myth in the WoD community that everything wasn't made to be cohesive with another.. and part of that is maybe true, but in many other ways with each new line; things were shaping up to one cohesive WoD universe. But then DtF went on a bible fanfiction spree and just brought things back to square-one before cWoD got its plug pulled.

                            And also, remember, the quote you brought up is a poem made by Lucifer. As far as we know, he was never put into the Abyss, so I don't why you bring it up. In vacuum where we both take up sources from both KotE and DtF, evening them against each other, Lucifer wouldn't know anything about the Ebon Dragon or Scarlet Queen because they were part of the Celestial Bureaucracy and not part of any of the Elohim Houses or part of the Heaven Host, the one formed to fight against the rebel Elohim.

                            If the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen were really associated with the Abrahamic God and not the August Personage of Jade, they would've been Demons/Rebel Elohim for Imbuing humans since the earliest times. Yet the source you reference from Lucifer, says they're the last Angels.. which they couldn't be, since they would have been casted to Abyss and turned into Demons. This goes to show how D:tF is contradictory to its own plotline (since the entire conflict in the beginning were Angels that chose to interfere with Humanity and then loyalist Angels along with the Abrahamic God who didn't want interference, aka keep Adam and Eve as dumb-dumbs in Eden).

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            Or in the case of the Fallen, beings that were a torturous state for eons and have had their minds have been damaged by it.
                            Again, this source from Days of Fire about the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen is referenced from Lucifer though. But the fact that he does is pure plot-hole, for the reasons I noted above. He never went to Abyss or had his mind rendered by it.

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            God basically erased the existence of the war from Humanity and the Earth
                            Apologies for this, since I haven't read Demon in a long time and purely going off memory here; but when did the Abrahamic God erased the war from Humanity or the Earth? If this actually happened, than D:tF should be very different. Or is this headcanon, so to speak?

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            By that same token, the Yama Kings didn't exist back then because their original purpose didn't exist back then. You see the original Yama Kings were created to purify the souls of the deceased for reincarnation. Something that Humanity didn't need until after the Age of Wrath as prior to that Humanity was of a more simple nature.
                            Yet you're completely incorrect on this. The Yama Kings were congruently active when the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen were active. The Yama Kings are literally the entire reason why the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen made the Wan Xian/Ten Thousand Immortals in the first place. If they weren't active or didn't exist at the same time, then their would be no Imbued at all.

                            Originally posted by Kindred of the East, pg. 44, Second Age
                            Soon thereafter, the Ebon Dragon and the Scarlet Queen
                            learned to breathe, and as they breathed, the Ten Thousand
                            Things of matter and spirit began to take shape. Where breathed
                            the Dragon, spirits and properties of Yin appeared; where breathed
                            the Queen, spirits and properties of Yang took form. Soon, the
                            worlds of matter and spirit had been breathed into existence. Gods
                            and dragons walked the young, vibrant world, and to them Heaven
                            ordained duties and positions in the Spirit Courts.
                            However, as the celestial beings gravitated to their specific
                            realms, some escaped the notice and tutelage of the Dragon and
                            the Queen. These beings, deprived of proper instruction,
                            neglected their duties and failed to make obeisance to the will
                            of Heaven. Certain creatures became dualisticatty opposed to
                            others, while others combined Yin and Yang in unwholesome
                            imbalance. Demons and mpnsters, greedy devourers of Chi,
                            appeared during the Second Age. *
                            The worst of these creatures made lairs deep within,the
                            wildest regions of the worlds. Disregarding the August
                            Personage's authority, these demons drained entire regions of
                            Chi, then claimed the blighted and diseased lands as their own.
                            The demons warred among themselves, and the mightiest
                            forced the other demons to swear fealty to them. Calling
                            themselves Yama Kings, these archdemons ravaged their surroundings
                            and plotted to garner vast amounts of Chi for their
                            own selfish appetites.
                            Even further on, the Yama Kings predate humanity as well; directly conflicting with your headcanon claim that the Yama Kinds didn't exist until humans came into existence:

                            Originally posted by Kindred of the East, pg. 44, Second Age
                            Humans also
                            came into being during the Second Age, a product of the
                            Dragon and Queen's love for each other. This last act, in
                            particular, was not received kindly by the monstrous Yama
                            Kings
                            . Jealous of their fairer brethren, the Yama Kings stalked
                            amid the first mortals, afflicting upon them sickness, terror and
                            destruction.
                            Also by some allusion, its referenced that the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen made humanity.. which definitely goes against stuff about them being part of the Abrahamic Heavenly Host from DtF- but this is a slight digression.

                            Originally posted by Kindred of the East, pg. 44, The Coming of the Wan Xian
                            And so, to protect its newborn charges, the August Personage
                            bestowed its favor upon certain of the most superior
                            mortals
                            , and a new race of beings was born.
                            The members of this race were not called Kuei-jin then —
                            they were the Wan Xian, the Ten Thousand Immortals. Selected
                            for their wisdom, power and balance, the Wan Xian were
                            neither wholly mortal nor wholly spirit, but possessed elements
                            of both. To become Wan Xian, a mortal soul had to cross into
                            the spirit worlds, then enter the Middle Kingdom once more.
                            Thus attuned to the world of spirit, the Wan Xian could draw
                            upon the stuff of the Yin and Yang Worlds — Chi — and utilize
                            it for sustenance and power.
                            Actually come to think of it, I was WRONG that it was the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen that first started up the Imbued. The Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen just restarted it during the Sixth Age, but it was the August Personage of Jade who basically started them up.

                            Either way, this directly puts more points in my argument why the August Personage of Jade and Abrahamic God presented in DtF are completely different entities. One deliberately enhanced humanity to fight against demons, while the latter one tried to fight the demons who tried to enhance humanity.

                            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13
                            The whole section is presented in an extremely barebones (intentionally I suspect as WoD always disliked giving a 100% concrete answer to these kinds of things) to the point that we don't know where the Queen and Dragon fall into this. Are they the Ministers or the Messengers? We don't know.
                            This is all solved through supporting evidence from KotE and from sources above. Also, its kinda obvious they're alluding to the Celestial Bureaucracy when they're talking about Ministers. It should be obvious. I never seen anything in D:tF where they talked about Ministers at all.

                            Honestly, this whole argument is moot; because again, HtR had little to do with DtF.
                            Last edited by Shakanaka; 10-17-2021, 12:02 PM.


                            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                            • #59
                              The whole 4th page of this thread is devoted to an In-depth metaliterary discussion about where the Imbuing came from, spanning no less than 3 game lines, two of which have not been updated since 2004: I feel this is quite the explanation for why the Imbued will not be their own thing!

                              It seems 5th edition is going more and more towards being a soft reboot of the game, inspired and in many instances derived by prior editions, but not bound by a philological approach.

                              Mind you, I actually liked the Imbued, I still hope they use some of the concept: they mentioned Convinction, Creeds and powers, so perhaps we will simply have "softer Imbued", like powers connected to Creed and powered by Convinction.
                              Last edited by Manfr; 10-17-2021, 09:10 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                                Or maybe these unnecessary reductions are due to them not even knowing the past material or not even bothering to review it.
                                W5, H5 and new material for V5 are developed by none less than Justin Achilli, the man who developed World of Darkness between the end of the 90s and 2004.

                                V5 was framed with help by Mark Rein Hagen, the man who actually invented the game, and still is being worked on by extremely knowledgeable freelance, as many materials are written by Onyx Path. Those same freelancers were also involved in the V5 corebook.

                                Even new authors, the cadre coming from Sweden and northern Europe, are all long time WOD fans, many of them coming from the LARP scene or involved with the failed WOD MMORPG. Outstar is a top WOD expert.

                                Surely, the 5th edition has taken some strong and stern choices, on tone, gameplay and plot: but those who are working on it definitely know and love the game.

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