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  • #76
    People being directed towards World of Darkness when someone asked about Hunter the Vigil in hololive is beginning to make a lot more sense now...


    Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post

      Define "good."

      If Paradox sells a lot of copies compared to what Onyx Path usually sells is that good? Well, did we take all the costs involved in wider scale distribution into account? There's a reason why movies aren't financial bombs or successes just based on ticket sales, but ticket sales vs. production costs. Is a movie that costs $50 million to make, distribute, and market, and sells $100 million in tickets better or worse sales than a move that costs $300 million to make, and sells $300 million tickets?

      The first movie made $50 million dollars. The second movie made no money, but sold six times the tickets.

      RPGs are always a shot in the dark for consumers to judge these things, because we get very rough estimates of sales, and no information on production costs, for most big name RPGs (smaller indie companies might be more transparent).

      And, there's also the goals of the company to account for. If Paradox doesn't care about profit, but about the appearance of success, selling a lot of copies even if there is no profit, to help market more profitable aspects of the brand (like future video games), then that also changes the definition of "good," compared to OPP, which needs profitable RPG sales to survive as a company.



      O...K...



      Marketing is more complicated than pleasing one person's opinion on cover color.

      Want to know what the old HtR books did that was important? The popped. Looking at a wall of early 2000s RPGs by just the spines (including other WoD books) it's a see of dark colors, mostly black, some browns, some greens, maybe some reds and purple, and so on. Then there's this vibrant contrasting orange there. Standing out in a crowd is important.
      I didn’t know that about how sales work in the RPG industry. Thank you. But I still think the color is one reason the original game didn’t do so well (or so I’ve heard).

      I wanted to like Hunter. I really did. I ordered Nocturnal Moonstruck and Spellbound all in one day and I didn’t like any of them.

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      • #78
        It's not really unique to RPG sales, even RPG sales reporting being as opaque as it is to the consumers isn't unique. Every industry has similar considerations. Though "luxury" and "niche" industries make the best comparisons to RPGs, as RPGs are both of those things (as in, they are luxury in the sense of being something without direct survival necessities or significant investment rather than luxury-as-demonstration-of-wealth, and niche because it's a small market).

        And I'm not asking you to like Hunter. As a HtR fan, I wouldn't pick the "enemy books" as something to sell the game to someone still uncertain about the games from the core book unless "how do you use the other WoD character types in this?" was an expressed primary source of dislike for the game.

        But here's the thing: the original HtR games did well. It wasn't the best, but for a game introduced just a few years before the cWoD was originally ended, it kept going while others game-line were cancelled (CtD had a huge fan base, and WtO was considered one of the best written games of the WoD, but both were cancelled with poor sales as the reason). It got more gaming books than Demon, Mummy, and Orpheus combined. It got three video games... at the time VtM only got two and none of the rest got any.

        Did it have the lasting impact as some of the others? Nope. But there's still fans playing it to this day, and it actually was a well selling game by the standards of the WoD of time despite all the Internet flame wars.

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        • #79
          I know nothing about sales in any industry, so I found it interesting. And I didn’t really dislike Hunter that much, but it felt too street level. I wanted more grand conspiracies. Maybe like internal plotting among the Messengers tryna manipulate their Hunter pawns. And more details about the enemies (you know not one clan name was mentioned in Nocturnal?) And yeah I know you’re gonna say “Hunter wasn’t that kind of game” but it should’ve been. And I think a lot of people, the kind of casual fans who don’t hang out on this forum cause they’re not hardcore into this stuff, wish it was.

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          • #80
            Ironically I like V5 BECAUSE it is street level, but it gives you a chance to build up to something bigger, like in Fall of London. Or maybe it’s just the color scheme lol.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
              I know nothing about sales in any industry, so I found it interesting. And I didn’t really dislike Hunter that much, but it felt too street level. I wanted more grand conspiracies. Maybe like internal plotting among the Messengers tryna manipulate their Hunter pawns. And more details about the enemies (you know not one clan name was mentioned in Nocturnal?) And yeah I know you’re gonna say “Hunter wasn’t that kind of game” but it should’ve been. And I think a lot of people, the kind of casual fans who don’t hang out on this forum cause they’re not hardcore into this stuff, wish it was.
              It might have got there if it had reached a second edition. Perhaps not quite this way, but the conspiracies tend to get bigger and more intricate as the metaplot grows. That was very 90s/00s WW.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                I didn’t know that about how sales work in the RPG industry. Thank you. But I still think the color is one reason the original game didn’t do so well (or so I’ve heard).
                I think you'd need to check your sources, the book really looked great on the shelves, and stood out quite nicely. That same color never stopped Deadlands selling quite well. I think the biggest issues here is that Hunter is not Vampire, and there's a different sales standard for anything other than Vampire. Werewolf and Mage were big for RPG's and other lines were niche lines.



                What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                  And I didn’t really dislike Hunter that much, but it felt too street level. I wanted more grand conspiracies. Maybe like internal plotting among the Messengers tryna manipulate their Hunter pawns. And more details about the enemies (you know not one clan name was mentioned in Nocturnal?) And yeah I know you’re gonna say “Hunter wasn’t that kind of game” but it should’ve been.
                  So, they funny thing? The creators of HtR don't entirely disagree with you. The original WW company did. Hunter: Utopia was a book that was supposed to start opening up the Imbued to larger scale stuff as they start to organize and work out a society. However, WW told the HtR folks that Utopia wasn't allowed to have the Imbued "win" so a lot of the book is hypothetical story hooks for what you could do, that has a discordantly pessimistic tone because the editorial team basically didn't want anything from Utopia from becoming part of the metaplot.

                  Fall from Grace, Utopia, and Holy War (which is not a book I generally recommend because there's just so much damned cringe in it) are the books that start getting into what happens when the Imbued start to tap into the personal, social, and metaphysical power, and start to rise up from "street level" to more serious contenders in the WoD.

                  Though, to manage expectations, the Messengers don't plot. They're effectively mindless (it's not that they're unintelligent, but they lack free will) servants of the Ministers, and there's only two Ministers who have a good working relationship. Demon introduce the idea that part of that is because Lucifer is screwing with things and the Ministers are at least united in an attempt to not let him use the Imbued for his purposes. So there's even some stuff on that level going on as the game goes on and interacts with the other games.

                  And I think a lot of people, the kind of casual fans who don’t hang out on this forum cause they’re not hardcore into this stuff, wish it was.
                  Based on what though? The game sold really well. It was forums like this where the game looks divisive and ill-suited to lots of tastes. If anything it's the opposite where casual fans, at least back in the day, liked the game as it was, and it was the hardcore fans online that were arguing about if the game was on the right track.

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                  • #84
                    Thank you guys. This is really helpful.

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                    • #85
                      HtR had a lot of blowback on the forums when it first released because of a stunt WW pulled. Basically they had a press release and put up stuff on the website saying that WW had been bought out by a third party. They even went so far as to set up a fake website for the third party, which they had set up to be some weird conspiracy-theory group, and there were notes on that page saying that they planned to discontinue or radically change a lot of the WW products. So you had people honestly believing that WW had been bought out and that there wasn't going to be any more VtM or Mage or Werewolf books or whatever. When WW revealed it was a stunt to generate hype for Hunter the Reckoning you had a vocal group of people who were upset, refused to buy HtR and did their best to shit on the game.

                      Then when HtR released it was setting the stage to be linked to Kindred of the East/Exalted and there was more blowback in the playerbase with linking the World of Darkness to a "Dragon Ball Z/anime inspired game" so then the writers started moving to link HtR with Demon instead once that gameline came out. Meanwhile with more casual WW fans who weren't big into the internet community Hunter was fairly popular and successful. I think in the online community the game was more divisive because of the original stunt with HtR annoying fans, and then you had a sort of echo-chamber effect.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by AnubisXy
                        World of Darkness to a "Dragon Ball Z/anime inspired game"
                        I want to live in this timeline.


                        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                          I want to live in this timeline.
                          You kind of already do, since you can take certain mechanics from Demon Hunter X and KotE and apply them more broadly, so that characters can charge up attacks with a turn by turn expenditure of power that they normally couldn't manage. I suppose you could throw WoD: Combat into that mix, too, since it was basically the bones of "WoD vs. Street Fighter".

                          Which, I have to say, is what I was hoping a Capcom-produced Werewolf game for the PS and Saturn was back in the day. Reality, unfortunately, is weighty and pitiless.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                            I know nothing about sales in any industry, so I found it interesting. And I didn’t really dislike Hunter that much, but it felt too street level. I wanted more grand conspiracies. Maybe like internal plotting among the Messengers tryna manipulate their Hunter pawns. And more details about the enemies (you know not one clan name was mentioned in Nocturnal?) And yeah I know you’re gonna say “Hunter wasn’t that kind of game” but it should’ve been. And I think a lot of people, the kind of casual fans who don’t hang out on this forum cause they’re not hardcore into this stuff, wish it was.
                            Well the thing you have to understand with the Imbued is that they are literally the newest splat in-universe. While the breed of Mummy in MtR is also new version of it, some of the new Mummies are actually older Mummy types turned into new ones. So they have individuals that have been around for a while and know things. Orpheus, the last line of WoD even predates the Imbued as the Orpheus Group was conducting projection experiments as far bad as 1996. The Imbued for their part started in 1999 after the Sixth Great Maelstrom.

                            In fact, in The Walking Dead book a big plot point of that book was the Messengers guiding a vampire (a Wan Kuei if I remember right) and a risen nicknamed Carpenter to the hunter-net, which should not be possible as the site is being protected from the supernatural eavesdropping, for the purpose of providing the Imbued with information about wraiths, the risen and what happened among the Dead following the 6GM.

                            So yeah, the ignorance of the Imbued was a plot point and potentially a game point as there were options to alter the existing supernatural creatures to surprised players, especially WoD vets. Obviously that couldn't stay that way forever but it is a nice feature of the line.

                            As for larger groups or factions among the Imbued, it's one of the many things that frustrated me that we never got a H20 as after twenty years, groups and factions like that would have formed among the Imbued and opened up a whole new field to play HtR in. Though I would have it has an option if you're playing in a setting where the Imbuing started back in 1999 while still allowing people to play the more street level stuff and more specifically the early years of the Imbued when things were largely unknown for them.

                            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                            HtR had a lot of blowback on the forums when it first released because of a stunt WW pulled. Basically they had a press release and put up stuff on the website saying that WW had been bought out by a third party. They even went so far as to set up a fake website for the third party, which they had set up to be some weird conspiracy-theory group, and there were notes on that page saying that they planned to discontinue or radically change a lot of the WW products. So you had people honestly believing that WW had been bought out and that there wasn't going to be any more VtM or Mage or Werewolf books or whatever. When WW revealed it was a stunt to generate hype for Hunter the Reckoning you had a vocal group of people who were upset, refused to buy HtR and did their best to shit on the game.

                            Then when HtR released it was setting the stage to be linked to Kindred of the East/Exalted and there was more blowback in the playerbase with linking the World of Darkness to a "Dragon Ball Z/anime inspired game" so then the writers started moving to link HtR with Demon instead once that gameline came out. Meanwhile with more casual WW fans who weren't big into the internet community Hunter was fairly popular and successful. I think in the online community the game was more divisive because of the original stunt with HtR annoying fans, and then you had a sort of echo-chamber effect.
                            Yeah, that was a dumb stunt on their part. If they had done that in more recent years... well they would have played into ARGs and the like and could have been a really great way to build excitement for the line.


                            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by thedonnie View Post
                              I am not a fan of the announcement.
                              I enjoyed the Imbued and the higher ups are pushing too hard for Chronicles of Darkness 2.0 instead of making World of Darkness 5.0
                              But, hey, if people out there enjoy it and want to play this version? Then I wish them all the best and to have many long years of playing.
                              My table? I am not even suggesting the game.
                              Wouldn't it be Chronicles of Darkness 3.0?


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #90
                                Some people are really pushing the narrative but as a CofD fan all I can say is 5e is very much not the world of Chronicles of Darkness.


                                Not returning to the forums, just stopping in for a moment.

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