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Demon: The Fallen - Umbra (little lore tidbit)

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  • Demon: The Fallen - Umbra (little lore tidbit)

    So, while I was working on a chronicle, and dug deep in the supplements, in Houses of the Fallen, noticed what - it seems - escaped my sight and/or never gave a tought or two about it
    It is on the page 65, in the Chapter Three: The House of Fire and Stone section

    "While they [the Artificers] did speak with the spirits of the stone and earth, of electron and molecule, they did not create those spirits. They simply allowed them to form naturally around the material.
    While the other Elohim worked in the spirital realms, the ethereal layers of reality, the Artificers stay in the material realm to fashion the stuff of Creation"

    Ooookay, this one is heavy
    So the Artificers, the Angels of Fundament were aware of the existence of spirits, even were able to speak with them! They were probably not really bothered to "notice" other spirits, just the ones that were connected to their work and area of expertise (and later, as the chapter said "...gluing together hydrogen and oxygen to privide the Angels of he Deep with oceans and rivers" they probably noticed the spirits of these watery elements too)
    Even with the strong abrahamic fundation and background of the game the Umbra and Spirits were/are present in Demon: The Fallen!
    Still, it work better as a standalone game, to' it is a bit hard to remove the Masquarade crossover potential, since the War with Heaven was kickstarted and became bloody murderfest thanks to Caine and naturally, the Wraith: The Oblivion connection, because... well... ghost, shadowland and the whole Seventh House... or Mage, because of the whole Human Potential, reality shaping power, divine spark and basically Lucifer wanted humanity to mass ascend, hell even the Hunters have their place in Demon: the Fallen but the only line that was somewhat impossible to justify was the Werewolf (even Changeling could be inserted, tho' very hard to do)
    The spirits, the Umbra, the whole enchilada was simply... to different
    Yet... all along Spirits and Spiritual realms were always there!
    Just nobody among the Fallen bothered with it
    I know, probably you were aware, but this little lore piece hit my like a tons of bricks
    Still hard to work with it, crossovers are notoriously hard to pull off sucessfully
    Yet... opened up a tons of ideas for me and my players ^^

  • #2
    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
    I know, probably you were aware, but this little lore piece hit my like a tons of bricks
    DtF Storyteller's Companion, page 70, on the box about Werewolf Powers:
    "Crossing Over: A werewolf can cross from the physical world into the realm of the dead and back again, much in the same fashion as the Slayers."
    I've always said in these forums that the idea that Demons only access the Dark Umbra is bullshit, a too literal reading of a book that was not using Werewolf or Mage terms and just not bothering with explaining things in Crossover-friendly terms.


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    • #3
      Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
      DtF Storyteller's Companion, page 70, on the box about Werewolf Powers:
      "Crossing Over: A werewolf can cross from the physical world into the realm of the dead and back again, much in the same fashion as the Slayers."
      I've always said in these forums that the idea that Demons only access the Dark Umbra is bullshit, a too literal reading of a book that was not using Werewolf or Mage terms and just not bothering with explaining things in Crossover-friendly terms.
      That part literally made 0 sense especially with the wole Malhim and Ziana, Seraph of the Cycle connection they worked so hard to set up in the books
      Haven aka. the Dark Umbra was "artifical", built by the Slayers, with a little Malefactor help and was helluva hard to find, not untill the end of the War (tho' I liked how Charon and co fled deep in the SL and his Fortress bacme the Labyrinth and themselves the Malfeans)
      Giving their descendants ability to travel there was simply idiotic
      Like you said they simply just not bothered with explaining things in Crossover-friendly terms.

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      • #4
        I think I can understand their reasoning.

        Demon was meant to be a short-lived line. It would see about 1 year of publication and the WoD would end. That means there was exactly zero chance of something like an entire supplement on the Umbra being published. It was meant to be a standalone, at the same time have to cover a lot of ground with as less books as possible.

        So, you'll have little opportunities to elaborate on anything not vital to their core themes and you need the book to be accessible to new readers that never got any other WoD book. Remember, every line must be able to exist by itself. Just name it the land of the dead or something and call it a day, that will be extremely easy for newcomers to understand, and die-hard fans can get the references and make simple cross-referencing with other material to get what's going on. Do they really need a third book on the Umbra?

        But they didn't count on their own standards. Words carry weight in every line and the Umbra has a clear pattern. Many fans were already incapable of realizing that Auspex 5 sends you to the Umbra just because it didn't call it out loud. If you pay attention to how they describe layered reality, their twilight state when discorporated, how they describe travel through the "realm of the dead", it isn't really hard to guess that it is the Umbra in general, but their previous standards with language got people confused.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post

          But they didn't count on their own standards. Words carry weight in every line and the Umbra has a clear pattern. Many fans were already incapable of realizing that Auspex 5 sends you to the Umbra just because it didn't call it out loud.
          Well, the Astral Penumbra anyway
          Or on a good day, the lowest level of the Vulgate.
          But you are right, I can see the reasoning tho' a bit frustrating

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          • #6
            [I'm too late, you answered this... so i delete post because i have no new information. Except artifacts which contain nature spirits (Lore of Spirit i think)]
            Last edited by Alphari; 06-21-2022, 08:20 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
              Haven aka. the Dark Umbra was "artifical", built by the Slayers, with a little Malefactor help and was helluva hard to find, not untill the end of the War (tho' I liked how Charon and co fled deep in the SL and his Fortress bacme the Labyrinth and themselves the Malfeans).
              I am intrigued. Is there a reference with more on this?

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              • #8
                Houses of the Fallen p.178-179 "Charon's City' and p.184 (p.184. in particular "Charon Redux?" part)
                Its not clearly written per se, but reading these, it is clear, Charon's fortress was where Sytgia is now today and he started dig downward to build a more secure fortress
                And the Charon Redux? part says its an option, they bacame either the Malfeans and the "new' fortress the Labyrinth or either they fled to the Far Shores
                But if you take the first part, Charon City, and put 2 and 2 together, if you start going down from the first one (*cough* Veinous Stair *cough* ) and built something down there...? Yeaaaah...
                And there is that little easter egg of sort, Nhudri the famous smith was rescued from the Labyrinth by the Wraith Charon (who got his name from the Lady of Fate aka. Eve who knew the Elohim/Sebettu Charon. By invoking the name of the builder of the Shadowlands, the Lady passed on the power of that name to Wraith-Charon - something he would have needed to get the fledgling Stygia off the ground) and Charon, the Halaku's top smith - who also went missing with Charon - was called Nhudriel...
                Last edited by Shadeprowler; 07-26-2022, 02:24 AM.

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                • #9
                  Even between Mage/Werewolf it's badly enough described that to this day players of both splats discuss wether or not the Deep Umbra of both are connected or the same, and several other concepts. There's simply no standards for the games, and that only bred mass confusion among players and basically each person has their own headcannon on the matter.

                  And, on top of that, you have DtF and VtM who are abhraamic monotheist, while MtA, WtA and CtD are animistic/totemistic and Wraith is basically agnostic, so there's really no agreement of any of the premisses of the world, just out of character specutalions of players and STs based on crossover source material

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                  • #10
                    The creation of Haven is one of those potentially devastating bits of lore that just sits there quietly and waits for someone to catch the implications. If the Tellurian was created to be a boundary between the infinity that is God and the infinity that is the Darkness (as the Devils claim), then the umbral pathway connecting Obivion or the Labyrinth to reality as we know it is all the Slayers' fault.

                    The Fallen had a LOT of bad ideas in their day, but this might be the one with the most disastrous consequences. Grandmother nearly made it into Creation through the tunnel that the Halaku dug when they tried to pull a fast one once upon a time.
                    Last edited by Reasor; 08-01-2022, 12:36 AM.

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