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  • Upgrading Sorcerer

    In the wake of the release of M20 Sorcerer, I'm restarting my Updating and Expanding Sorcerer thread.

    The purpose of this thread is to note things that M20 Sorcerer didn't include that were in earlier editions, and to propose house rules to upgrade the effectiveness of sorcerers.

    M20 Sorcerer didn't include any of the Backgrounds from SRev. This isn't necessarily a problem: those Backgrounds were Cholé (a Background that's more appropriate to the Bata'a and those with similar Practices than to Sorcerers), Guide (which is essentially just a Familiar), Mana (which is mechanically identical to Avatar, save only that the Avatar is Sleeping and won't be providing any guidance to the sorcerer unless and until it Awakens and the sorcerer becomes a mage), and Status (which appears in M20). It adds Artifact, though I'd argue that that's redundant: just like you can use Avatar to represent SRev's Mana, you can use Wonder to represent Artifact. There's no reason why Wonder must be restricted to magical items created using Awakened Magick.

    A number of the Merits and Flaws have also been removed; but I'm not seeing anything that I regret losing. Either they're implemented in other ways (e.g., you don't need Ritual Congregation when you have the Cult Background) or they really don't have anything to do with sorcerers (why in the world did S20 include Sterile or Mistreated Minority?). I miss more the fact that Character Creation section doesn't mention the Equal for All option.

    The sixth dots of the Paths are gone.

    My main bullet point from the old thread has been incorporated into M20 Sorcerer: Paths no longer list specific Attribute + Ability pools; instead, the sorcerer assigns a Practice to the Path and uses that to decide what Attribute and Ability should be used for it. While I like it, it does make Sorcerer slightly less “shovel-ready”; so one thing I intend to do here is to provide “sorcerous approaches”, which start as cheat sheets for the hedge wizards featured in Hunters Hunted II, Kinfolk, and Ghost Hunters, listing not just which Paths they feature but also what pools each Path uses. I intend to expand to the various Affiliations featured in M20 Sorcerer.

    Psychic Phenomena, on the other hand, don't need this treatment, at least not for the purpose of keeping things simple: all Psychic Phenomena that have rolls now use your Willpower as their dice pool. This is perhaps too simple; and an option might be presented making Psychic Phenomena more like Hedge Paths by basing their pools off of the Psionics practice found in Book of Secrets: the nutshell version is that the associated Abilities are things like Awareness, Empathy, Meditation, and Alertness.

    In terms of house rules to further empower sorcerers: the first and foremost one is to remove the Willpower expenditure for casting a spell, performing a ritual, or activating a psychic phenomenon. This is the single biggest hindrance that sorcerers face in working their magic, forcing them to use their Paths very rarely. I might make an exception for Fast Casting: unlike earlier editions, M20 Sorcerer doesn't require you to spend another Willpower to Fast Cast. But that might be appropriate if you don't have to spend Willpower to cast in the first place.

    My next suggestion would be to make the spending of successes on Aspects something you do after the spell is cast, not before. One success gets you the minimum rankings in all relevant Aspects, and then subsequent successes let you increase the Aspects as you see fit. Increasing this a bit further, identify one Aspect per Path as its primary Aspect: the first success you get gives you that Aspect at your Path rating.



  • #2
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    My next suggestion would be to make the spending of successes on Aspects something you do after the spell is cast, not before. One success gets you the minimum rankings in all relevant Aspects, and then subsequent successes let you increase the Aspects as you see fit. Increasing this a bit further, identify one Aspect per Path as its primary Aspect: the first success you get gives you that Aspect at your Path rating.
    Agreeing with all your points, and this one in particular. The difficulty increase for higher Path powers already takes care of success mitigation for a primary Aspect.
    As an alternative for defaulting to one success, I thought about that maybe adding a zero level and adjusting the Aspects a little could be more intuitive. It might also be nice to consolidate certain Aspects into groups (Mass, Time, Space) with a Small / Medium / Large grading. That way, it would be easier to make a table for quick reference.

    Comment


    • #3
      Warning: Tables




      Reworked Aspect system draft

      Basic system: Path level is identical to Primary Aspect level. Casting works with the usual roll Attribute + Ability against Path level + 4. One success suffices to enact the power of the Primary Aspect and all zero levels of associated Aspects. Additional Aspect levels can be purchased with additional successes after the roll.

      Changes to Aspect lists: Aspects have been consolidated into fewer general Aspects. These have been classified into Target Aspects for spell targets and Auxiliary Aspects for supporting aspects. Unique aspects to Paths have become Primary Aspects. Zero levels have been added to Auxiliary and Target Aspects. A single Target Aspect is chosen depending on the target of a spell or ritual: Mass for objects, Mundane for animals and humans, Essence for supernatural creatures.

      Aspect table:
      Auxiliary Aspects Target Aspects
      Space Time Accuracy Empower Mass Mundane Essence
      x touch minutes hazy - < 1 oz. 1 whimsical
      3 ft scene vague + 1 die ounces 2 tiny
      •• 6 ft hours crisp + 2 dice pounds 5 weak
      ••• 10 ft days vivid + 3 dice 50 lb 10 average
      •••• 25 ft weeks accurate + 4 dice 100 lb 50 strong
      ••••• 100 ft months precise + 5 dice 500 lb 100 powerful
      ••••• • 1 mi years - - 1000 lb 500 -
      ••••• •• 5 mi decade - - tons 1000 -
      When targeting mundane animals, add + •• for small animals, or + for medium sized animals.

      Optional system: Sympathetic Connection has been reworked as a Casting Aid along with a few new ones. Each aid decreases the total number of successes needed for casting Rituals, and thus allow for more extended use of Aspects.

      Casting Aid table:
      Sympathetic
      Connection
      Correspondence
      Components
      Ritual Time Ritual Space
      Any Possession Common Correct Planetary Hour Proper Circle
      •• Prized Possession Expensive Correct Day of Week Historic Site
      ••• Body Part Exotic Correct Moon Phase Place of Power
      •••• True Name Rare Equinox or Solstice Telluric Nexus
      ••••• Direct contact Magic Material The Stars are Right Caern
      These are meant as example, the sorcerer’s Focus and the type of spell should be considered.

      Overview table with changes:
      Primary Aspect Auxiliary Aspects Target Aspects
      Alchemy - - -
      Conjuration Space + •• - Any (Mass + ••)
      Conveyance Travel Speed Space + •• Any (Mass + )
      Divination Query Accuracy, Time + •• Essence
      Ephemera Spiritual Reach - Essence
      Enchantment - - -
      Fascination Willbending Space + , Empower (Social) Mundane, Essence
      Fortune Severity Time + Mundane, Essence
      Healing Healing - -
      Hellfire Damage Space + (Range), Space (AoE) -
      Illusion Senses Accuracy Mundane, Essence
      Maelstroms Intensity Space + •• (AoE), Time -
      M. Necromancy Ghost Binding Time Essence
      Necronics Impedance Space (AoE), Time -
      Oneiromancy Dreamwalking Space + •• (Range) Essence
      Q. Manipulation Flow Space (AoE), Time -
      Shadows Shadowgrip Space + (Range), Space (AoE), Time Any
      Shapeshifting Scale Empower (Attribute), Damage -
      Starlight Wending Time + Any
      Summoning Mundane or Essence Time -
      Binding Binding Intensity Time Mundane, Essence
      Warding Mundane or Essence Time + -
      Weather Control Intensity Space + •• (AoE), Time -
      Last edited by voidshaper; 08-10-2022, 02:45 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        I'll have to look this over more closely; but on a once-over, it's looking like a definite improvement.

        Specifically, what I'm looking to do is to compare these tables to their closest counterparts in m20. I figure that the results ought to be fairly similar, if not identical; and if not identical, just a tad under their M20 counterparts. I'm driving right now, so I'm not in a position to do the looking up.
        Last edited by Dataweaver; 08-09-2022, 08:09 PM.


        Comment


        • #5
          I can save you some time with the mapping tables I used. There is definitely some tweaking required I think.
          Space Area Range (Space + ) Distance (Space + ••)
          x touch A single target
          3 ft •• Three feet or so x
          •• 6 ft ••• A few square yards Touch only x
          ••• 10 ft •••• 10 square feet •• Less than 10 feet A few feet
          •••• 25 ft ••••• 20 square feet ••• Less than 25 feet •• Around 20 feet
          ••••• 100 ft •••• About 50 feet ••• Up to 100 feet
          ••••• • 1 mi ••••• Within 150 feet •••• Up to half a mile
          ••••• •• 5 mi ••••• Up to five miles
          .
          Time Duration Time Period (Time + ••)
          x minutes A few minutes
          scene •• One scene
          •• hours ••• A day or two x
          ••• days •••• A few weeks One day
          •••• weeks ••••• Several months •• One week
          ••••• months ••• One month
          ••••• • years •••• One year
          ••••• •• decade ••••• 10 years
          .
          Mass Passengers (Weight equivalent) Weight (Mass + ••)
          x < 1 oz. x
          ounces No Equipment
          •• pounds •• Small amount of stuff x
          ••• 50 lb ••• Extra person Less than an oz.
          •••• 100 lb •••• Two •• A few pounds
          ••••• 500 lb ••••• Three ••• Up to 100 pounds
          ••••• • 1000 lb •••• Up to 1000 pounds
          ••••• •• tons ••••• Cars and elephants
          I just wish the forum HTML wouldn't mess up the table formatting.

          Comment


          • #6
            I have some notes regarding overhauling the paths of alchemy, enchanting and mana manipulation(or quintessence manipulation now) to bring them more in line the aspect system in other paths(this stuff was modeled when level 6 sorcery was a thing so it'll need re-balancing):
            • Complete overhaul of mana manipulation
              • Dot rating determines the target a sorcerer can transfer mana to and from 1: Sorcerer themselves and personally important physical items(can store personal mana externally for later use). 2: Nodes 3: magical items 4: supernatural creatures 5: non-sentient living creature 6: inanimate objects
              • Mana manipulation now has the aspects Transfer and Time.
                • Transfer determine how much mana can be held in an object or the sorcerer.
                  • Storing additional mana in an object that already holds mana requires that a sorcerer must over-write the previous spell and allocate more successes in the transfer aspect than the previous casting held by the object.
                  • When Draining, successes determine how many points are taken from the relevant energy pool of the object or creature being drained. If the supernatural creature or object is out of energy or is entirely mundane, then the mana drained is taken out of the object or creature’s Health Levels instead.
                • Time determines how long the object or sorcerer can hold the transferred mana. When cast outside of combat, the spell lasts for 1 hour per success, in hasty casting required in combat however limits this to 1 Turn per success.
            • Complete overhaul of Enchanting
              • Talismans have an enchantment rating determined by the Dot level used in the enchanting process
              • Talismans come in 1 of 3 flavors. Talismans that add dice, Talismans that add successes, and spell enhanced Talismans.
                • Dice adding objects can add up to their enchantment rating to a specified Attribute + ability rating or substitute a specified ability the user doesn’t have
                • Success adding enchants add up to the objects enchantment rating divided by 2(rounded down) to a specified Specialized attribute + ability roll. The successes can only apply to one specific specialty of an ability(like a demonology specialty for an occult roll) and the user must roll at least one success for the extra successes to apply.
                • Spell Enhancement is where a Sorcerer places a spell from another path or ritual onto an object for quick access. A sorcerer can only put spells and rituals onto an object if their enchanting path is equal to or less than the path rating of the spell/ritual.
              • Enchantment aspects are Duration, Charges, Price, and(If the object is spell enhanced) The aspects of the path being used
                • Duration measures the amount of time the enchantment lasts on a talisman. 1: On scene or hour. 2: One day or one session. 3: A week 4: One month 5: One year 6: Permanent
                • Charges measure how many times the enchantment can be used before dissipating. Each success adds one charge. Alternatively, a Sorcerer may add a “price” to the enchantment that refreshes the stored charges every time it's paid.
                • Price measure how difficult it is to refresh a talisman's charges. A talisman's price is essentially a task allows the talisman to collect ambient mana of specific resonances. Price has 3 sub-aspects that successes may be allocated to individually.
                  • Price-Difficulty
                    1. a task requiring grueling effort or extreme peril, A sacrifice dear of something dear to the sorcerer or pledge to avoid an act she enjoys immensely and would otherwise perform on a regular basis.(Example: Murdering a person, 5 years of the user's life expectancy, required ascetic diet such as only allowing bread and water, loss of a precious memory)
                    2. an action requiring serious effort or danger to complete, forswearing an act she enjoys or an act that requires serious effort to avoid. (Examples: the Talisman must be bathed in a serious amount of the user's freshly drawn blood, cutting out a favored hobby, a ban on looking at or touching specific colors)
                    3. an action requiring moderate effort or slight danger, or avoidance of an action she would otherwise do, but one that she feels no particular emotional attachment toward. (examples: user must make a superficial wound, the object must be blessed by a ordained priest and the blessing can only be granted once by any one priest, is no longer allowed to thank or accept thanks from others, a ban on a specific type of meat.)
                    4. a task or abstention that requires minimal effort or presents little inconvenience. (examples: leaving the talisman out at night to bath in moonlight, must be stored in a specific container when not worn or used, the talisman cannot be cleaned or repaired)
                    5. a seemingly trivial task of no real importance to the Sorcerer, avoiding something extremely rare or abstention from something she already avoids for other reasons. (examples: a small object of trivial value such as a quarter is sacrificed, the answer to a trivial personal question such as the user's birth name, must uphold a religious or personal code the user is already following)
                    6. Talisman may passively take it's price without input from the sorcerer. Please note that while this this means that the talisman doesn't inconvenience the sorcerer, it still isn't free. Every time it the would be paid in the “frequency” section, the storyteller may roll an number of dice equal to the talisman's enchantment rating against a difficulty of the local gauntlet. If the roll fails, the talisman temporarily loses it's magic until the next price determined by “frequency”. If the roll botches, the sorcerer suffers backlash as if they attempted use the talisman without paying it's price.
            • Price-Frequency
                  1. Must perform Price once a day, Every time the talisman is used, or abstain from the ban at all times(even when not using the talisman)
                  2. Must perform the price 3 time a week or abstain from ban for an unbroken week before using the talisman
                  3. Must perform Price once a week or abstain from ban for a day before talisman is used
                  4. Action must be performed bi-weekly or ban must be adhered to for an hour before talisman may be used.
                  5. Price must be performed once a month.
                  6. Price is performed once a year.
                • Price-Backlash. If a sorcerer attempts to use a talisman without paying it's price or after breaking it's ban, they suffer a curse of a level determined by this chart. Successes used in this section reduce the severity of the curse.
                1. The Sorcerer suffers immediate Death at the hands of the Talisman
                2. The sorcerer permanently loses an number of attributes dots equal to the talisman's enchantment rating.
                3. The sorcerer adds the talisman's enchantment rating to the difficulty of all rolls until the talisman's next Price on the frequency chart.
                4. The sorcerer immediately suffers a number of unsoakable levels of aggravated damage equal to talisman's enchantment rating
                5. The Sorcerer temporarily loses their magic, subtract the talisman's enchantment rating from the rating in paths or other supernatural powers the sorcerer possesses
                6. The sorcerer loses the talimsan's enchantment rating from all applicable resource pools(willpower, mana, blood etc.)
            • Complete overhaul of Alchemy
              • Alchemy is now a path centering around the transmutation of substances to replicate the properties of a real material. A sorcerer's alchemy rating determines the complexity of the substances they can replicate.
                1. Minor: The alchemist can temporarily alter the basic state of a material to one that is possible for the material in other conditions, but short lived in nature. Examples such as creating dry ice at room temperature, dissolving oil in water, or holding molten steel in a freezer
                2. Simple: The alchemist may transmute reagents into replicas of pure elemental matter such as nickle, carbon, oxygen etc or impose properties they know onto elemental matter(such as giving iron the conductivity of silver or carbon the tensile strength of titanium)
                3. Merged: The alchemist may replicate chemical compounds such as water, gasoline, prescription drugs etc or impose the properties of the same onto existing chemical(such as giving pure water the properties of a electrical conductor, powerful anesthetic or pain killer.)
                4. Living: The sorcerer may replicate non-sentient living substances such as meat, plant matter, or designer bacteria, or imposing propertied the sorcerer knows onto non-sentient living matter(such as making tree bark as dense as crystal, give a virus the volatility of elemental sodium, or turning a steak into a potent and undetectable poison)
                5. Animate: The sorcerer can now replicate the will of thinking entities into their creations and transmute substances with the properties of the supernatural or impose properties they know onto thinking and sentient beings.
                6. True Creation: The sorcerer's transmutations are now real rather than replicas. Alterations cannot be dispelled by magic and the sorcerer may transform humans into true supernatural creatures such as vampires, werewolves, mages, mummies, etc.
            • Alchemy aspects are Cost, Duration, Properties, and Potency.
              • Cost is the total cost of reagents required for the transmutation. The transmutation's cost in reagents equivalent to one month of income with [5 + Dot rating in alchemy used – successes] dots in the Resources background
              • Durations measures how long the transmutation lasts before it decays. Every time a substance is subject to decay, it loses one success of potency off one of the substance's properties every decay cycle. If stored properly(in specially enchanted containers or in a node with appropriate resonance), the decay cycle is every [successes] days. If not stored properly, the substance decays every [successes] hours. If the sustenance is actively in use, the decay happens every [successes] turns. For dot 6 transmutations, this aspect is not used.
              • Properties: Successes here determines the number of properties the subject gains. This is the number of properties from different chemicals or the number of supernatural powers copied if using Alchemy 5+.
              • Potency: this is how powerful an individual property is and successes must be dedicated to each property individually. For most transmutation this just requires the initial success, but for properties with rating like damage, toxicity, difficulty adjustment and level of supernatural power more successes(equally to the level of the property) are required.
                • For supernatural powers specifically, the initial success only allows the alchemist to copy an inherent ability of the supernatural(such as the ability to feed in vampires, regenerate as a werewolf, possessing 10 health levels as a risen, etc.).
                • Alchemy is limited to transmutation of physical substances, so the powers and abilities of intangible things such as Spirit charms, Most Ghosts arcanoi, Imbued messenger given edges, Changeling Arts, and Demon Lores are beyond it's ability to copy. The powers subject to alchemy are limited to the powers of vampires, gifts of the Fera, the unique abilities of Risen, the arts of the Wan Kuei that are available to dhampyrs, and Mummy alchemy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Nice. As with voidshaper's proposed overhaul of the Aspects, I'll need to study this more carefully to see if there are any problems with it; but on a quick once-over, I like your overhauls of these. (Interesting that the problematic Paths you identified are all related to what Prime does for the Awakened.)
              Of particular interest to me is to what extent ManaQuintessence Manipulation works with the Art of Desire/Hypereconomics. With M20 Sorcerer (and Paths of Power) having embraced Practices, this means that Paths like Alchemy, Enchantment, and especially Quintessence Manipulation need to be able to be thought of in terms of “Quintessence as economic power”.


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                In terms of house rules to further empower sorcerers: the first and foremost one is to remove the Willpower expenditure for casting a spell, performing a ritual, or activating a psychic phenomenon. This is the single biggest hindrance that sorcerers face in working their magic, forcing them to use their Paths very rarely. I might make an exception for Fast Casting: unlike earlier editions, M20 Sorcerer doesn't require you to spend another Willpower to Fast Cast. But that might be appropriate if you don't have to spend Willpower to cast in the first place.
                Just to put a bookmark on this as it came up in the S20 thread: I generally do like the Willpower cost (it's will-working after all), but ignore the casting time on spells, so in effect make everything a Fast Cast (but at basis difficulty) by my house rules.

                A compromise may be to change the casting time into cool-down: after successfully casting a Path X power, there is a X round cool-down before the Sorcerer can cast again. Fast Cast would then mean cutting the cool-down short. Also, instead of a difficulty increase on a fast follow-up, I would rather have an effect decrease as penalty.

                Edit: maybe a penalty of successes equivalent to by how much the cool-down was cut short. Hmm, I need to mill on that a little.
                Last edited by voidshaper; 08-10-2022, 03:49 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  Of particular interest to me is to what extent ManaQuintessence Manipulation works with the Art of Desire/Hypereconomics. With M20 Sorcerer (and Paths of Power) having embraced Practices, this means that Paths like Alchemy, Enchantment, and especially Quintessence Manipulation need to be able to be thought of in terms of “Quintessence as economic power”.
                  Honestly was focused on magic also being explainable as technology. The "chemically" altered sheet of plastic being as strong as steel is easily explained even with today's science(at least until it gets to the higher levels where you're potentially giving that sheet of plastic the ability to drink blood and fly on it's own power).

                  I guess a more economic viewpoint could be "construction through management". An economic sorcerer could manage mortal engineers and craftsman in the process of making of the item as part of the ritual.

                  There could also be some way of enchanting an item by Buying an item to be made to Exact specifications, but that feels like a stretch. It'd suite a syndicate or NWO member way more than a sorcerer.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by voidshaper View Post
                    Just to put a bookmark on this as it came up in the S20 thread: I generally do like the Willpower cost (it's will-working after all), but ignore the casting time on spells, so in effect make everything a Fast Cast (but at basis difficulty) by my house rules.

                    A compromise may be to change the casting time into cool-down: after successfully casting a Path X power, there is a X round cool-down before the Sorcerer can cast again. Fast Cast would then mean cutting the cool-down short. Also, instead of a difficulty increase on a fast follow-up, I would rather have an effect decrease as penalty.

                    Edit: maybe a penalty of successes equivalent to by how much the cool-down was cut short. Hmm, I need to mill on that a little.
                    Nitpick: Awakened Magick is Willworking (and doesn't have a Willpower cost); Hedge Magic isn't.

                    I think the easiest approach would be the first one you suggested: just make it one turn of concentration to cast, unless the hedge wizard chooses to take their time.

                    Still not on board with the Willpower cost, though: Willpower points are too hard to come by. Maybe allow sorcerers who have access to Quintessence to pay that cost with Q instead of WP?


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                      Honestly was focused on magic also being explainable as technology. The &quot;chemically&quot; altered sheet of plastic being as strong as steel is easily explained even with today's science(at least until it gets to the higher levels where you're potentially giving that sheet of plastic the ability to drink blood and fly on it's own power).

                      I guess a more economic viewpoint could be &quot;construction through management&quot;. An economic sorcerer could manage mortal engineers and craftsman in the process of making of the item as part of the ritual.

                      There could also be some way of enchanting an item by Buying an item to be made to Exact specifications, but that feels like a stretch. It'd suite a syndicate or NWO member way more than a sorcerer.
                      Frankly, I don't think much if anything needs to be done with regard to Alchemy our Enchantment in terms of an economic model; it's mainly a Quintessence Manipulation thing. Though, for the Awakened, the reason why it factors in is because you need Q to make Wonders; that's not true where Alchemy and Enchantment are concerned. If Q were to have some sort of special role in Alchemy or Enchantment, that would be a different matter. But that's not where we are, and we probably shouldn't go there.

                      Finally, there are (techno-)sorcerers in the Technocracy; and that includes the NWO and The Syndicate.


                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                        Still not on board with the Willpower cost, though: Willpower points are too hard to come by. Maybe allow sorcerers who have access to Quintessence to pay that cost with Q instead of WP?
                        That works, too. Speaking of, has anybody here ever seen a player who didn't pick the Mana Background in Rev? Should that be something with a default value on character creation?

                        I still want to explore the cool-down idea a bit. It has some advantages over casting time (reactivity mostly) I like.

                        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
                        (Paths)
                        Adding Aspects to these crossed my mind too when I made the overhaul draft. I want to try to fit them into my system after any kinks have been smoothed out. Optimally, a revised Aspect system should also allow easy addition of custom Paths.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                          Finally, there are (techno-)sorcerers in the Technocracy; and that includes the NWO and The Syndicate.
                          Yeah, should have specified "awakened" there.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I would like to see something about being able to reverse engineer the Wonders of the Awakened in order to develop new items for Alchemy or Enchantment. Let me double check if these suggested revisions include that.


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                              I would like to see something about being able to reverse engineer the Wonders of the Awakened in order to develop new items for Alchemy or Enchantment. Let me double check if these suggested revisions include that.

                              It could technically be feasible with enchanting(and alchemy to a lesser extent) already. The sorcerer would just need a combination of paths similar enough to the effect of the wonder to copy it, but it'd have to use the sorcerer's charge and price system though(even for mage wonders that are just at-will for mages).

                              Alchemy can somewhat do this natively even in the old version. The 5th dot power that let's one copy supernatural abilities doesn't exclude sphere effects, it's just that as noted in other mage-sorcerer interactions, sorcerers can only recreate specific rotes, not entire sphere effects. Alchemy is further limited because things involving non-materials things like the spirit sphere are likely beyond it.

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