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  • How many Supernaturals are on the World?!

    icant remember where, but somewhere i read that for every 100.000 humans, theres one vamp.
    Which made me think, how many (aprox) supernatural beings are on the World of Darkness and who has the largest number?


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  • #2
    Vampires are probably the most numerous but there might be 1 supernatural for every 15,000 people would be my guess

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    • #3
      Actually wraiths are the most numerous. After all there are a lot of people who die each day and while the vast majority of them don't become wraiths upon death but a small percentage of them do, each and every day.


      Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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      • #4
        Ah, but how many Wraiths can actually interract with human people? I think what's being asked is how many exist in the Reality plane of WoD. Otherwise there's probably far more Spirits in the Umbra than even Wraiths themselves, Pangaea having been around millennia before human ghosts.


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        • #5
          Wraiths are likely the Most numerous by far.

          But Vampires are 100,000 humans per 1 Camarilla Kindred, and the Sabbat doubles this to 1 per 50k, and when measuring outside of cities things get muddy, the same when competing in territory with the Wan Kuei who follow similar patterns. So there are probably around at least 70k+ Vampires (Cainites + Wan Kuei). So maybe even 100k Vampires wouldn't be too out there, particularly since with shovel head tactics the population can fluctuate rapidly. There are more Cainites then Wan Kuei, but Wan Kuei are assumed to maybe be around 35k in number. Cainites could number anywhere from 40k to 80k depending on the ST.

          Revised talked about Werewolf numbers more, and the exact number depends on the ST but it sounds like about 13k-20k Garou in the world counting Non Garou Nation Garou like the Black Spirals, and Hakken.

          Flat out there Are Millions of Ghosts. Not everyone who dies becomes a Wraith, but there are enough people dying all the time that they pile up.

          There are a little more then 2 million demons I think that Survived to be placed in the Abyss, but its unrevealed how many escaped to Earth, but more and more are escaping and the weakest, which are also the most numerous, are the ones escaping. So in my opinion at least half are probably going to be able to make it out of the prison of the Abyss without widening the Cracks but its just going to be over the years rather then in one go.

          Changelings besides Wraiths seem like the most numerous Supernatural Splat (not counting things like Possessed/Fomori, and never humans like spirits and crap). The Changelings have populations large enough to fill out Freehold Court Culture, without even needing to be in large population centers. They seem to outnumber even vampires by a bunch because even small rural towns could have an entire freehold when they normally would only be able to support like 1/3rd a whole vampire. The Thing is most supernaturals don't know this because the Mists pretty much make everyone over look Changelings. So by supernatural lore they know changelings are out there, but most seem to think they are extinct, or in worse straights then them because they rarely know of many sightings of them. So I would say Well over 100,000 Changelings.

          Mages modern numbers are supposed to be 1 out of every million or so humans awaken. But mages can live longer then humans, but a bunch of the strongest also got shunted off to the business end of the spirit world. So they number less then Werewolves. They might even be in the 4 digit numbers population wise, or very small 5 digit numbers.

          Hunters of the Imbued variety seem to exist in the few hundreds, but they have a short shelf life and seem to constantly be replaced.

          Mummies seem to be very very rare, with uncertain numbers, but likely over all types numbering in the hundreds, though in some games less then two hundred of all types of Mummies would work fine.

          Fomori and other human possessed probably number around the numbers of Changelings, but many are shock troops with short lifespans. A single garou could have a life where they have killed dozens of human Fomori, some epic individuals may have killed hundreds. They spawn all over the world spontaneously, but can also increase in numbers with specific effort by Wyrmish forces.

          Hsien aren't given population numbers. But I would say they are likely at least numbering in the thousands, possibly well over 10 thousand but who knows.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            One of the books, I can't remember which, said that if you added up all the supernatural beings in the world, you'd have less than 1% of the population. Even if you added up all the people directly affected by supernatural beings (kinfolk, people fed on by vampires, etc) you'd still be looking at only 5% of the population.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              One of the books, I can't remember which, said that if you added up all the supernatural beings in the world, you'd have less than 1% of the population. Even if you added up all the people directly affected by supernatural beings (kinfolk, people fed on by vampires, etc) you'd still be looking at only 5% of the population.
              Need to find that book then.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                One of the books, I can't remember which, said that if you added up all the supernatural beings in the world, you'd have less than 1% of the population. Even if you added up all the people directly affected by supernatural beings (kinfolk, people fed on by vampires, etc) you'd still be looking at only 5% of the population.
                It makes sense, people say the CWOD made seem like everything was a Supernatural but that's not really true. The NWOD seems to have a higher Supernatural to Mortal Ratio, especially when you consider their 2nd gameline outright states there are like what 300k Werewolves in the World?


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Eldagusto: Where in the books makes you believe there's a lot of changelings? I agree with your logic, but I recall the books made it sound as if Fae were exceedingly rare.


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                  • #10
                    It came from a discussion a decade ago on the forums that actually got me into reading Changeling. Basically in all the gamelines when mentioning the Changelings/Fae they either say they think they are extinct, or insanely rare. But when you read the Changeling core you find out they are dying out, but only in comparison to the days before the Sundering. The way freeholds and the courts work as described in the changelings books requires large amounts of changelings to fill out the feudal structure. And Changeling is also one of the Gamelines that makes rules for mass combat, where you can have say a war of 70 or so changelings on each side. The changeling books indicate local populations of changelings seem quite numerous, where small towns could have the equivalent number of changelings that Large cities like New York would have for Vampires. Meanwhile large towns with lots of changelings, like San Francisco, have buttloads of changelings, enough to fill out multiple freeholds.

                    Simply put Changelings and Wraiths are the only Supernaturals with the numbers to regularly go to war if they need to. With Werewolves and Vampires assembling massive forces is something you really only do maybe once in a generation with consequences reflecting back into the population of the Nation/s involved for generations. Such as when Russia assembled to finally wipe out Baba Yaga's Forces. They lost about half of their 1,000 assembled werewolves but they took out literally armies of Banes/Vampires/Fomori not to mention single entity siege Engines such as the Zmei. Meanwhile two states of Warring Changeling Kingdoms likely could field similar forces, though the fighting wouldn't be as brutal.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Wraiths are likely the Most numerous by far.

                      But Vampires are 100,000 humans per 1 Camarilla Kindred, and the Sabbat doubles this to 1 per 50k, and when measuring outside of cities things get muddy, the same when competing in territory with the Wan Kuei who follow similar patterns. So there are probably around at least 70k+ Vampires (Cainites + Wan Kuei). So maybe even 100k Vampires wouldn't be too out there, particularly since with shovel head tactics the population can fluctuate rapidly. There are more Cainites then Wan Kuei, but Wan Kuei are assumed to maybe be around 35k in number. Cainites could number anywhere from 40k to 80k depending on the ST.

                      Revised talked about Werewolf numbers more, and the exact number depends on the ST but it sounds like about 13k-20k Garou in the world counting Non Garou Nation Garou like the Black Spirals, and Hakken.

                      Flat out there Are Millions of Ghosts. Not everyone who dies becomes a Wraith, but there are enough people dying all the time that they pile up.

                      There are a little more then 2 million demons I think that Survived to be placed in the Abyss, but its unrevealed how many escaped to Earth, but more and more are escaping and the weakest, which are also the most numerous, are the ones escaping. So in my opinion at least half are probably going to be able to make it out of the prison of the Abyss without widening the Cracks but its just going to be over the years rather then in one go.

                      Changelings besides Wraiths seem like the most numerous Supernatural Splat (not counting things like Possessed/Fomori, and never humans like spirits and crap). The Changelings have populations large enough to fill out Freehold Court Culture, without even needing to be in large population centers. They seem to outnumber even vampires by a bunch because even small rural towns could have an entire freehold when they normally would only be able to support like 1/3rd a whole vampire. The Thing is most supernaturals don't know this because the Mists pretty much make everyone over look Changelings. So by supernatural lore they know changelings are out there, but most seem to think they are extinct, or in worse straights then them because they rarely know of many sightings of them. So I would say Well over 100,000 Changelings.

                      Mages modern numbers are supposed to be 1 out of every million or so humans awaken. But mages can live longer then humans, but a bunch of the strongest also got shunted off to the business end of the spirit world. So they number less then Werewolves. They might even be in the 4 digit numbers population wise, or very small 5 digit numbers.

                      Hunters of the Imbued variety seem to exist in the few hundreds, but they have a short shelf life and seem to constantly be replaced.

                      Mummies seem to be very very rare, with uncertain numbers, but likely over all types numbering in the hundreds, though in some games less then two hundred of all types of Mummies would work fine.

                      Fomori and other human possessed probably number around the numbers of Changelings, but many are shock troops with short lifespans. A single garou could have a life where they have killed dozens of human Fomori, some epic individuals may have killed hundreds. They spawn all over the world spontaneously, but can also increase in numbers with specific effort by Wyrmish forces.

                      Hsien aren't given population numbers. But I would say they are likely at least numbering in the thousands, possibly well over 10 thousand but who knows.
                      I've got a few doubts about your theories.

                      First of all: the number of vampires: in V:tM Core rulebook there's a statement that every 100k people should sustain one vampire (for the sake of Masquerade). But it's not a rule. If it was a rule there should be about 27 vampires in Chicago and there is certainly more. Same in other Cities. Plus in vampire genealogy (someone wrote down every vampire from every cWoD book) states that there are 2615 known vampire. And some of them met their Final Death. Even if we assume that there are some that wasn't described and and that all of character templates from clanbooks (both editions) exists (10 for each clanbook except 1st edition Tzimisce), add some Cainites only mentioned in varous sourcebooks or novels, add those from video games and those from 20th anniversary edition (which weren't mention in genealogy which in turn was written earlier) i don't think that number of Cainites in the world exceeds 10k

                      As for Werewolves there is a statement (in 1st Edition Player's Guide I believe) that Stargazers is the smallest tribe and have about 500 members around the globe. I also read somewhere that Black Spiral Dancers are as numerous as 2 tribes of uncorrupted Garou (so I think that there is about 1500 BSD around the world). If we assume that average tribe have about 1k members we would have about 15000 werewolves chasing Wyrm around. As for other fera I read also ( 1st Edition Player's Guide for W:tA again if I remember correctly) that there's about 20-30 gurahl and 50 nuwisha in the world (I'm not counting those who are still beyond The Barrier)

                      As for wraiths there's a thread for them: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...one-population

                      I didn't find exact number of fallen angels in Bible but I've heard 2 theories:
                      - that there's 6666 of them
                      - that fallen angels are about 1/3 of all angels. Number of all angels is "myriad of myriad and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5:10-12). As far as I know myriad can be translated from greek as ten of thousands. That means that there are about 100000000 angels and 1/3 of them are fallen. 33000000 demons... Quite a number, but unlikely so I will rather use first theory. Plus I've heard a theory that Messengers were God's response for the Abyss escapees. So if there is 1000 Hunters (see below) there should be about 1000 Demons

                      Mages. Mages are another curiosity. If we assume that only those, who have Willpower over 5 (character creation chart) could Awake and we look at the Delirium chart in W:tA core book we will see that those mortals with WP 5+ are about 37% of entire mortal population. In November 2018 human population reached 7.7 billions. That means 2.8 billions of potential mages (I have to substract other supernaturals) A lot of them, but not unreal judging by number of illlusionists, phone psychics etc. And remember that mortals can be Awakened artificially (like in 1988 in Chicago - Technomancer's Toybox p.78).

                      Hunters. The easiest thing. If we assume that most of Hunters are users of hunter-net, each one have an unique number, and the highest number is 656 so there will be no more than 1000 Hunters.

                      Moving down to mummies I don't remember where I read it but there are no more than 200 mummies around the world.

                      I will not write about "weekend supernaturals" (kinfolks, ghouls, formori etc.) cause they are too easy to create (like ghouls or possessed) and as you said have mostly short lifespan.

                      I will not also write about changelings of hsien, I don't know much about them. But if I have to divide Earth population there will be mortals (including weekend supernaturals)>wraiths>mages>changelings>we rewolves>vampires>demons>hunters>mummies
                      Last edited by Nail Eater; 02-16-2019, 02:39 PM.


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                      • #12
                        You’ve made some erroneous assumptions and have used some rather specious logic.

                        Read the storytellers handbook in revised, the rough rule for how man vampires are assumed to be roughly true. Cities sometimes break the rules with more vampires by a handful and countryside break the rules with vampires spread. Sabbat have about double. And the books take into account things like commuters and the extended suburbs of a city. But Chicago’s metropolitan area is about 10 million so that is about 100 vampires, with probably a sizeable number of unwanted Caitiff swelling the number by about a dozen or so but they are regularly scourged.

                        And there are certainly more Vampires then a mere 10 thousand, that is silly, those fan censuses are just that, fan project. They just mention the Vampires names in the books and that is a mere fraction of those in the world.

                        Revised puts the Stargazers at less then 200 in modern times. And Spirals are as big as any two tribes, and Bonegnawers in the revised handbooks are said to be about 2k, and the next largest tribes are said to be about 1300-1500 in size.

                        Those Gurahl. Numbers are only the Gurahl they are waking up, but they are still tiny in size over all. I think assumed to be little more then Stargazers in size. And the Nuwisha literally keep only 100 on Earth designates to live there at a given time. An uncertain majority live and operate in the Umbra.

                        We are literally given a number on how many Demons rebelled and how many were cast Into the Abyss, like down to the single digits. There are not 6k demons. The books are clear, about 3 million of about 9 million angels rebelled and closer to 2 million survived the War and were caste into the Abyss. Read Dias Ignis.


                        The weakest demons are the only ones to escape from Hell and they are the vast majority of Demons, so over a million popped into Earth. Demon the Fallen literally says the Bible is not an accurate source of events or logistics. Don’t take Myriad of Myriad literally, they just mean a lot more then a lot, and by olden day standards over 9 million angels is more then they can fathom.

                        Nowhere does it say the Angels made an imbued for every Demon, or that the Hunternet has most of the Worlds imbued registered. They probably number less then a thousand and they rarely last longer then a year after they are imbued. They are treated as disposable by the messengers.

                        Not everyone with willpower of 5+ is a Mage that is insane...


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          You’ve made some erroneous assumptions and have used some rather specious logic.

                          Read the storytellers handbook in revised, the rough rule for how man vampires are assumed to be roughly true. Cities sometimes break the rules with more vampires by a handful and countryside break the rules with vampires spread. Sabbat have about double. And the books take into account things like commuters and the extended suburbs of a city. But Chicago’s metropolitan area is about 10 million so that is about 100 vampires, with probably a sizeable number of unwanted Caitiff swelling the number by about a dozen or so but they are regularly scourged.

                          And there are certainly more Vampires then a mere 10 thousand, that is silly, those fan censuses are just that, fan project. They just mention the Vampires names in the books and that is a mere fraction of those in the world.

                          Revised puts the Stargazers at less then 200 in modern times. And Spirals are as big as any two tribes, and Bonegnawers in the revised handbooks are said to be about 2k, and the next largest tribes are said to be about 1300-1500 in size.

                          Those Gurahl. Numbers are only the Gurahl they are waking up, but they are still tiny in size over all. I think assumed to be little more then Stargazers in size. And the Nuwisha literally keep only 100 on Earth designates to live there at a given time. An uncertain majority live and operate in the Umbra.

                          We are literally given a number on how many Demons rebelled and how many were cast Into the Abyss, like down to the single digits. There are not 6k demons. The books are clear, about 3 million of about 9 million angels rebelled and closer to 2 million survived the War and were caste into the Abyss. Read Dias Ignis.


                          The weakest demons are the only ones to escape from Hell and they are the vast majority of Demons, so over a million popped into Earth. Demon the Fallen literally says the Bible is not an accurate source of events or logistics. Don’t take Myriad of Myriad literally, they just mean a lot more then a lot, and by olden day standards over 9 million angels is more then they can fathom.

                          Nowhere does it say the Angels made an imbued for every Demon, or that the Hunternet has most of the Worlds imbued registered. They probably number less then a thousand and they rarely last longer then a year after they are imbued. They are treated as disposable by the messengers.

                          Not everyone with willpower of 5+ is a Mage that is insane...
                          Ok, I didn't read all the sourcebooks (like Dies Ignis). I believe that so are you. So to answer you:

                          Vampires: 10k is my assumption. If almost 3000 vampires from various books are gathered by one person in a some form of census, there are some that weren't mentioned and some who weren't used per se as the specific characters (like p. ex. templates). So I tripled the number from the census.

                          As for werewolves if the smallest tribe has 200 members, the largest 2000 the median will be around 1000 (even if the second and third largest one have 1300 - 1500 members). 1000x13+2x1000 (BSD) makes 15k.

                          As for Gurahl it was mentioned either in 1st edition Player's Guide for W:tA or Breedbook Gurahl that there are about 20 in the world. The rest is dead or in the Umbra.

                          As for Nuwisha you are right, I forgot that.

                          As for Demons I wrote earlier that I haven't read Dies Ignis. I am aware that Demons claim that Bible isn't accurate. I am also aware that when you are at war anything you say about your enemy counts. If you can depreciate him that's fine. Church claims that Satan and his minions cannot win this eternal war. Propaganda rules .

                          As for Hunters 1k is an assumption, based on hunters-net.

                          As for Mages I suggest you reading more carefully. I wrote that 2.4 billions of people has the potential to become mages, not that they are mages. WP 5+ (base WP for mages during character creation = minimal) that means 37% population (W:tA Delirium chart). 37% x 7.7 billions of people = 2.8 potential mages. But none sane mage would try to replenish it's Tradition/Convention ranks, even knowing that Awakening could be forced. The Paradox would tear the Reality apart. On the other hand we still have Marauders ]:->. And an insane idea for a story :P.
                          Last edited by Nail Eater; 02-16-2019, 05:32 PM.


                          Warrior of the Rainbow
                          Saint among the sinners
                          Pure among the dirt
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                          • #14
                            As I mentioned with Gurahl, those were the awake Gurahl, Revised has upped the timeline a bit and more have awakened, but basically from The Gurahl Book, which I believe was 2nd ed and not first, those were the Gurahl currently awake, and specifically the American population of Gurahl, it gave a point of view that the Gurahl were not a cohesive breed in modern time.

                            then what you are saying with Mage not particularly helpful, we all know you need high willpower to become a Mage. That is like saying Mages come from humans and their are 7 billion humans so 7 billion potential Mages. That isn’t the number of Mages though only the pool of people who can awaken.

                            Also the willpower charts are a bit wonky, for instant Willpower 10 should be much rarer then one in 200.

                            Read the revisied Players Guide to the Garou and Revised Storytellers Handbook, they give a literal population range census for the tribes within a few hundred range. Furies and Red Talons are also rare at about 400, Glasswalkers and Uktena are in the 1,000-1400ish range.

                            And once again those are the named vampires, everyone understands it’s a census of those mentioned in books and not the whole world, that is insanely silly to think they would list every Vampire or even one third. If you apply that to say the Garou do you honestly think they have named over 600 Bonegnawers, that is less then one third their numbers. That is why I said you are using specious logic.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Well, there are many books I have to read. Mostly I ignore revised edition, cause, as you mentioned, every edition push the timeline forward and my campaign is waaaayyyy before 2018. I flip through many books but I didn't focus on them.

                              But

                              The main thing that we argue about is the number of Mages. It's true that mages come from human. So do Vampires, some Werewolves and Changelings. Not to mention Wraiths (many of supernaturals can become Wraiths after death). We also have Gypsies, psychics, mediums, hedge magic users and ex Orpheus Group employees. Some of supernaturals can be counted as members of two groups (like Abominations). And we also have Samuel Haights . The Delirium chart is one of the sources that could suggest number of Mages. Even if you lower the number of people with WP 10 you should still remember that average WP for a mortal is 3. And it's not so far away from 5. So I think that your population of Mages is too low. You wrote that Mages are supposed to happen 1 in a million. So I've got 2 questions:
                              Why do you think so (is it official or your assumption)?
                              What makes you think that they don't work like vampires (general rule 1 Vampire for 100k mortals and the reality is another thing)?

                              As for Vampires, if we use the general rule we should have 77k of vampires. So just as you wrote. For me it's way too much. I live in a city with population almost 700k. That means 7 Vampires. In an unofficial sourcebook for my city there are about 30 Vampires described. It's not a big problem to meet 30 and even 7 certain people. Meeting my ex coworkers proves that. And that's why I think that number of Vampires should be lower (not to mention how many people lives in cities smaller than 100k citizens). And I didn't include Wan Kuei.

                              As for Werewolves I will read revised Player's and Storyteller's Guide and try to "create a census". They are my favourites so it will be a pleasure.
                              Last edited by Nail Eater; 02-16-2019, 06:39 PM.


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