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  • #16
    Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post
    I didn't find exact number of fallen angels in Bible but I've heard 2 theories:
    - that there's 6666 of them
    - that fallen angels are about 1/3 of all angels. Number of all angels is "myriad of myriad and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5:10-12). As far as I know myriad can be translated from greek as ten of thousands. That means that there are about 100000000 angels and 1/3 of them are fallen. 33000000 demons... Quite a number, but unlikely so I will rather use first theory. Plus I've heard a theory that Messengers were God's response for the Abyss escapees. So if there is 1000 Hunters (see below) there should be about 1000 Demons
    Not trying to harp on you or anything, but unless I'm mistaken the Earthbound book states that there are 666 Earthbound alone, just thought you'd like to know!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Malfean90 View Post

      Not trying to harp on you or anything, but unless I'm mistaken the Earthbound book states that there are 666 Earthbound alone, just thought you'd like to know!
      OK, but I was refering to one of the christian theories which I've heard that the number of all fallen angels is 6666 . And thanks for the info.


      Warrior of the Rainbow
      Saint among the sinners
      Pure among the dirt
      Loser among winners

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      • #18
        Regarding Mage numbers. The Fallen Tower puts the number of mages and sorcerers at 1 in 150,000 people. The Book of Mirrors puts the total number of Awakened at 1 in 1,000,000 with a roughly even split between Traditions, Technocracy and Other.

        So that puts it at roughly 43,600 “Sorcerers” (in quotes because about 15,000 of them practice a linear version of the Technocracy’s paradigm) and 7700 mages split at about 2500 Tradition, 2500 Technocracy and 2700 Other (mostly Crafts and Orphans, but also a few hundred Nephandi and couple dozen Marauders).

        I also seem to recall that the Order of Hermes has the most Awakened of the Traditions (about 500) while the Euthanatos are the smallest Tradition in terms of actual Awakened (about 120) with the others somewhere in the middle. Every Tradition is buffered with 2-4 times that number of Sorcerers though.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
          Regarding Mage numbers. The Fallen Tower puts the number of mages and sorcerers at 1 in 150,000 people. The Book of Mirrors puts the total number of Awakened at 1 in 1,000,000 with a roughly even split between Traditions, Technocracy and Other.

          So that puts it at roughly 43,600 “Sorcerers” (in quotes because about 15,000 of them practice a linear version of the Technocracy’s paradigm) and 7700 mages split at about 2500 Tradition, 2500 Technocracy and 2700 Other (mostly Crafts and Orphans, but also a few hundred Nephandi and couple dozen Marauders).

          I also seem to recall that the Order of Hermes has the most Awakened of the Traditions (about 500) while the Euthanatos are the smallest Tradition in terms of actual Awakened (about 120) with the others somewhere in the middle. Every Tradition is buffered with 2-4 times that number of Sorcerers though.
          OK, that's concrete. But I still like the idea for a campaign which makes the Traditions and Technocracy putting aside their war and working together to stop an insane (as if there were any sane :P) Marauder from mass Awakening the unprepared Mortals .

          Now all that we need is to know how many psychics/medium/Gypsies are there to have all supernatural population covered .


          Warrior of the Rainbow
          Saint among the sinners
          Pure among the dirt
          Loser among winners

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
            One of the books, I can't remember which, said that if you added up all the supernatural beings in the world, you'd have less than 1% of the population. Even if you added up all the people directly affected by supernatural beings (kinfolk, people fed on by vampires, etc) you'd still be looking at only 5% of the population.
            You're right, I also recall this. I believe it was in one of the books published in Poland. And that means:

            Vampire: the Masquerade Core rulebook (2nd & revised edition), Player's Guide (2nd edition), Player's Guide to Sabbat (2nd edition), Dark Ages (1st edition), Hunter's Hunted (1st edition) Clanbook Assamite & Clanbook Gangrel (2nd edition)

            Werewolf: the Apocalypse core rulebook (2nd edition), Storyteller's Screen (2nd edition), Storyteller's Guide (2nd edition), Player's Guide (2nd edition), Rite of Passage (1st edition), Under A Blood Red Moon (2nd edition)

            Mage: the Ascension Core rulebook (2nd & revised edition), Book of Shadows (1st edition), Book of Madness (1st edition), Chaos Factor (1st edition), Hidden More (2nd edition), Destiny's Price (2nd edition), Book of Mirrors (2nd edition)

            Kindred of the East & Demon Hunter X

            Mummy 2nd edition

            World of Darkness 2nd edition.

            And that's all I think. I think also that you should look for it in Hunter's Hunted, Book of Shadows, Book of Madness, Hidden Lore or Book of Mirrors or any of Player's and Storyteller's Guides. I think that was in one of those books.



            Warrior of the Rainbow
            Saint among the sinners
            Pure among the dirt
            Loser among winners

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            • #21
              Having worked pretty extensively on this problem, two things.

              First, take the books with a very heavy grain of salt. There are repeated instances where things are completely inconsistent to the degree of absurdity - for instance, there are supposedly some 40,000 cainites in existence and 40,000 more have met the final death. We also have death tolls for events in the 1990s (e.g. the 1999 Sabbat Crusade, which would account on its own for 6% of all known Vampire deaths under the 40-40 split model) that would account for 1/12th of all known vampire deaths in history - and while it's the Final Nights there's no indication that these were meant to account for such a huge amount. We actually see the concern being overpopulation and not the mass die-off that'll summon the Antediluvians. Similarly, if we walk back in history a little, the Feast of Folly saw 12,000 Cappadocians imprisoned at, say, c. 300 (since it postdates the rise of Christianity). This was anywhere from half to two thirds of the clan depending on the source, so our total Cappadocian population hits at anywhere from 18 - 24,000 - a full quarter of all vampires to ever exist, assuming they didn't reproduce after FoF (which, you know, they did - even a very slow population expansion from the surviving 6,000 over the remaining 1000 years will see another 600 - 1200 Cappadocians emerge, which may seem like a small number but is statistically significant with such a small total population) and virtually all subsequently died, so that pushes them to half of all known cainite deaths. There's literally nothing in the material to suggest the Cappadocians were ever that big a majority, even if they were once the most populous clan. We could always chalk it up to poetic license with the figures and cut them down significantly but at that point we're really having to play quite heavily with the data.

              Second, any figure you can derive via raw statistics will always be questionable, even reinforced by a study of the setting in toto. There simply isn't sufficient information about too many of the potential populations.

              But, that said... I still have a few entries to fine tune, but I last arrived at the following figures:
              There are approximately 150,500 active supernatural entities in the 20th century (not including fomori, banes, and wraiths, and with some changeling figures excluded.) I'll try and work that up into proper type divisions later when I have the time, but in the meanwhile you can check my Changeling, Vampire, Werewolf and Wraith demographics threads for some figures examining the in-book representation of each.



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              • #22
                Another thing that started to bother me: rate of natural increase. Ok, we all know that about 5% of deceased end in Shadowlands and that the shapeshifters are slowly dying. But I was wandering how frequently do you allow your PCs find/meet cubs/newly Awakened, become Reapers or how frequently the Prince lets his fellow vampires Embrace somebody.


                Warrior of the Rainbow
                Saint among the sinners
                Pure among the dirt
                Loser among winners

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                • #23
                  The correct answer is 'whenever it suits the story'.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by loomer View Post
                    The correct answer is 'whenever it suits the story'.
                    OK, but that's the easy way. I was just wondering p. ex. how shitty the shapeshifter's situation is.


                    Warrior of the Rainbow
                    Saint among the sinners
                    Pure among the dirt
                    Loser among winners

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

                      OK, but that's the easy way. I was just wondering p. ex. how shitty the shapeshifter's situation is.
                      It's not an easy way so much as the only viable way. I could spend some time to give you all the stats on how often a new vampire is embraced or how many Garou are born or change each year or the statistics of Wraith emergence, since I spent the time gathering it, but it wouldn't actually be useful for two reasons. First, every game will have a different emphasis - some cities will have Princes who rigorously enforce the right to control who embraces, others will have a lenient policy, some will have a totally defunct principate and the chaos of free embrace for instance - and second, what we have available is nowhere near broad enough to make useful projections from for anything but Wraith or Vampire. Vampires we know have an embrace date in the 20th century (plus the 4 years until the end of Revised), for instance, only number some 700 odd in the data. There's more, but with no possible date other than 'after their sire' - I'll have to refine that in so lets double it to 1400 - which gives us only some 14 embraces per year averaged over the century. The odds of this actually being the case are very low, especially when we have multiple years that exceed that. Our sample of Vampires done in the 90s, with the same doubling to account for where I've not made a note of 'after their sire' and thus probably inflated higher than it actually is, about 300 - so 30 a year. Still probably lower than the real figure.

                      Why do I assume this is too low? Because the death rate for the same period is, respectively, 6,221 and 5,399. There is no indication whatsoever that the Cainite world has become suddenly and violently depopulated - rather, every bit of setting text is the exact opposite outside of a few mentions of areas still recovering from the Sabbat Crusade after 99 or a slight depletion of Chicago's cainites mentioned off hand here and there. It makes intuitive sense, of course, that we might see depopulation after the multiple major conflicts and disease outbreaks of the 90s but we never see it reflected and so we shouldn't assume it to be a major factor. We must then assume that the repopulation rate is near, equivalent to, or exceeds the fatality rate, which means we're seeing only a tenth of the embraces in the available data that we'd need to actually be seeing to account for the overpopulation motif. But, even if we just bump our reproduction rate yearly to equal the death toll in the 90s, we're still only seeing one and a half embraces per night over four continents. The odds of a given embrace taking place in your city of play, statistically, are pretty damn low (doubly so when one considers that the bulk of new embraces are coming out of Sabbat territories and Anarch territory, which restricts their geographic range even further), which means any embrace other than one every few decades is down not to 'an easy answer' but to what the story needs.

                      We have more or less the same issue across all splats. The data available is too limited to be accurate, and even where we make assumptions based on more available data, what we wind up with rarely squares with the setting as presented, let alone what makes for a good story.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

                        OK, but that's the easy way. I was just wondering p. ex. how shitty the shapeshifter's situation is.
                        It's not a cop out answer. There's the reasons that Loomer mentioned, but also it really depends on what you want in your games, what you need for your games, and your own sensibilities of what constitutes a little or a lot. Like how bad are werewolves doing? For some maybe they only want 3k or 10k, while others want 30 to 50k worldwide; or hell, maybe your pack is the last functional pack in all the world and it's only a few dozen blunt fangs left watching over a handful of caerns elsewhere. If you really need the number to conceptualize the setting, fine. More power to you for figuring that out, but some people need enough for what they need and could care less. We're also under no obligation to care about what others conclude to this question.

                        I don't mean to be an asshole about it, but as many as you need to suit your story is the only true answer. Everything else is an opinion.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by loomer View Post

                          It's not an easy way so much as the only viable way. I could spend some time to give you all the stats on how often a new vampire is embraced or how many Garou are born or change each year or the statistics of Wraith emergence, since I spent the time gathering it, but it wouldn't actually be useful for two reasons. First, every game will have a different emphasis - some cities will have Princes who rigorously enforce the right to control who embraces, others will have a lenient policy, some will have a totally defunct principate and the chaos of free embrace for instance - and second, what we have available is nowhere near broad enough to make useful projections from for anything but Wraith or Vampire. Vampires we know have an embrace date in the 20th century (plus the 4 years until the end of Revised), for instance, only number some 700 odd in the data. There's more, but with no possible date other than 'after their sire' - I'll have to refine that in so lets double it to 1400 - which gives us only some 14 embraces per year averaged over the century. The odds of this actually being the case are very low, especially when we have multiple years that exceed that. Our sample of Vampires done in the 90s, with the same doubling to account for where I've not made a note of 'after their sire' and thus probably inflated higher than it actually is, about 300 - so 30 a year. Still probably lower than the real figure.

                          Why do I assume this is too low? Because the death rate for the same period is, respectively, 6,221 and 5,399. There is no indication whatsoever that the Cainite world has become suddenly and violently depopulated - rather, every bit of setting text is the exact opposite outside of a few mentions of areas still recovering from the Sabbat Crusade after 99 or a slight depletion of Chicago's cainites mentioned off hand here and there. It makes intuitive sense, of course, that we might see depopulation after the multiple major conflicts and disease outbreaks of the 90s but we never see it reflected and so we shouldn't assume it to be a major factor. We must then assume that the repopulation rate is near, equivalent to, or exceeds the fatality rate, which means we're seeing only a tenth of the embraces in the available data that we'd need to actually be seeing to account for the overpopulation motif. But, even if we just bump our reproduction rate yearly to equal the death toll in the 90s, we're still only seeing one and a half embraces per night over four continents. The odds of a given embrace taking place in your city of play, statistically, are pretty damn low (doubly so when one considers that the bulk of new embraces are coming out of Sabbat territories and Anarch territory, which restricts their geographic range even further), which means any embrace other than one every few decades is down not to 'an easy answer' but to what the story needs.

                          We have more or less the same issue across all splats. The data available is too limited to be accurate, and even where we make assumptions based on more available data, what we wind up with rarely squares with the setting as presented, let alone what makes for a good story.
                          OK, that's kinda thing I was looking for. I know, that I could use the easy way "whenever it suits the story" but I wasn't looking for precise data to use in my story. I was rather looking for any inspiration based on methods used by other Storytellers. I find your approach very interesting and maybe, if you don't mind, use it during my games. So thanks in advance.


                          Warrior of the Rainbow
                          Saint among the sinners
                          Pure among the dirt
                          Loser among winners

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Onkwe View Post
                            I don't mean to be an asshole about it, but as many as you need to suit your story is the only true answer. Everything else is an opinion.
                            I didn't mean to to be rude also. As I said earlier I like to know the ways you guys handle the problem like that one .



                            Warrior of the Rainbow
                            Saint among the sinners
                            Pure among the dirt
                            Loser among winners

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nail Eater View Post

                              I didn't mean to to be rude also. As I said earlier I like to know the ways you guys handle the problem like that one .
                              It's all good. It's not that asking such questions is bad, even if exploring such details doesn't hold a high interest for myself, but just trying to figure it out with any authority beyond personal preferences is. That's only reason I said anything.

                              And I agree taking into account the population numbers of specific regions and how their relationships work out can be very helpful for conceptualizing any setting. And the reason I even got mixed up in this thread was curiosity over what others thought of this very question too.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Onkwe View Post

                                It's all good. It's not that asking such questions is bad, even if exploring such details doesn't hold a high interest for myself, but just trying to figure it out with any authority beyond personal preferences is. That's only reason I said anything.

                                And I agree taking into account the population numbers of specific regions and how their relationships work out can be very helpful for conceptualizing any setting. And the reason I even got mixed up in this thread was curiosity over what others thought of this very question too.
                                That's really the spirit of my project. I've had some very neat findings around average generation, length of lineage, etc, and some that reveal the serious biases and blindspots of the game lines like how Sidhe made up over half of all Changelings with a definite or discernible kith. It's impossible to be authoritative as anything more than a strict 'this is what the books, as written, depict regardless of what they say elsewhere' but the information is still neat stuff.

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