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Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

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  • Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

    Good Evening.
    I Am Crowley, i been running DtF for a couple of years now and i noticed that lately, theres been A LOT of questions about one of my favorite games (Demon: The Fallen). For which i decided to make this thread to share ideas, questions, and suggestions about this beautiful game.
    I must state a few things before, i have Never read any fiction of DtF (Even if i have Lucifer's Shadow but i havent made the time to read it), and i have never read or lied my eyes upon Houses of The Fallen (Probably because i cant seem able to find it in physical form).

    Other than that, Feel free to ask and suggest what ever you wish and desire.

    Personally, i did a little Homebrewing on the Lores, making them less like "Disciplines" like the ones of Vampires and more in atunnement with the Spheres from Mage. Concidering that demons are Reality Builders in the original sense.
    Im not a huge expert on rituals but i can do some little bit more of reseach when it comes to it.

    Some of my personal views

    To me, Demon the Fallen is a Religious game with a lot of Lovecraftian Overtones. Fill with Regret, Damnation, Depression (Yes. to some degree i found this game AS depressing as Wraith)


    The Abyssm: its a Lovecraftian dream come truth, a place fill with hatred, regret and guilt. Always alone but fill with screams of agony (both inside your head and the ones of your Brothers). a Place where you are Always alone (but encapsulated in a way that you can hear others around you). Always dark, Always Hungry (to the point where youre forced to Mutilate yourself and eat your own flesh to survive). A place where the human mind Cant withstand it or Cant Comprehend it.
    In my games if ANY creature thats not a demon, gets casted away into the Abysm. He will try to commit suicide just for the sheer horror and theres no way to come back "Sane" from that place, even if youre for less than a minute, your character will be broken in such a way that all his willpower will be erased, his virtues will stop working and you will be a broken shadow of your formerself, only wanting to Die..or perhaps even too afraid of Dying and Going to That place (Had players who thought that bad people went into the Abysm)

    Torment: Its not parasitic, but would almost seem like it. Can you get ridden of it?
    In my games, No through outside influence...but Yes through your own Sheer willpower and doing "Good" (that, and 10 exp once your temporal Torment reaches Zero).

    What happends if a Mage "Removes" the torment away?.
    A sheer experience of the bigest horrors that a Human Mind can see. Even if this were to be ripped out, the pure horror of this eldtrich contamination (IF you wish to see it like this) would go back onto his original Host...but would make the people around do rolls of willpower dificulty 8 and at least 6 successed in order not to go insane for its mere presence.

    Character Creation, Whats so Different in your Campaings

    This is actually interesting. The way I do it its this, i allow the player to Pick a house, Pick his lores (if they are older than the Halaku/Slayers. i give them Lore of Fundament and Humanity) And i allow them to pick their Apocalyptic Forms, Score faith and Score torment..And the Angelic/Demonic Backgrounds (But i dont allow them to start with Thralls or Cult).
    Then, i describe how they Break free into The World (and describe towers, buildings, cars and such in the most Eldtrich fashion possible to the Fallen ones).

    Now its where it gets interesting... I dont let them Create the human that they will possess..
    I Rather offer them a Number of Humans (with their points already distributed, merits and flaws and such) already done. and once these humans die, i allow the players to get a hold of one of these (the deaths are instant but i give limited time to the player to pick which human to possess).

    I been thinking it a couple of times on doing the process backwards. To allow them to play as a Human and let them Die (for them, it was an accident or a dream) and get the players possessed by demons i Designed with out them notice

    What happends when a Demon Dies?
    If you mean erase it out of existance?. on my games at least, i feel that they are a nesesary hook to their creations. What i mean by this?, you cant kill the Angel of Blood (given an example) in a way that you utterly destroy it (NO, I DONT MEAN CONSUME IT. BUT I MEAN AS A MAGE ERASING THIS BEEING OUT OF EXISTANCE) OR his creation will fade with him.

    But what happend with demons which creations dont exist anymore like Unicorns or some rare animals?
    The creation might be lost, but that doesnt mean that they are out of the game. in a more poetical sense they are "Kings with out a Kingdom to Rule."

    Ok, But What would change RP wise if my demon created some particular metal?
    In my games, i allow demons to manipulate more Easly elements that they Created. Yes, this can be overpower if the player knows what he is doing. but the idea is not to let him know until advanced into the game
    Example: My trademark character Crowley (Alastor, Angel of Vengeance) is fighting someone just "Because". if Theres no Implicit vengeance, he uses his lores normally or rolls normal damage.
    IF crowley is claiming vengeance upon someone who he belives, deserves to be avenged or punished in the name of Vengeance. Then he has an +1 Damage and his lores related to Vengeance against one individual are -1 difficulty..As long as that individual is Alive or as long the Vengeance is taking place against this individual. The only limit is that Crowley must decide if based upon the thrall story or in whats going on, if its worth to be Avenged. (so yeah, he cant use this bonus if he is avenging you because someone took your parking place. but because of something bigger and epic in scale...Think V For Vendetta or The Crow)



    These are some of my personal homebrews.






    Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
    ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
    Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
    Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

  • #2
    I have a question. In a W:tA game I'm running, where I include all of the WoD, a NPC at the high school were the character attend, attempted suicide. She succeeded and died on the way to the hospital. A low level demon than took up residence in her body. The demon is a Devil of the Luciferan faction. She had Social/Mental/Physical as her attribute priorities. She has 3 dots in Lores ( Radiance, The Flame and The Firmament). She has 4 Faith, 4 Torment and 8 Willpower. Her merits are Enchanting voice, Smooth, Good sense of Character, Great Liar, and Good recognition. Her flaws are Abusive Partner and ADD. She was a loner in school and was abused by her father. Nobody in school really noticed her, even the characters, until she killed her self at school. When she came back, she had started dressing differently and made the two girls who had abused her in school into her thralls.

    What I am wanting to know, for this character and for future reference, is what could this demon offer the girls or others to make packs with them. Also is there any way to gain faith without actually making a pack with someone? Thanks for any help you can give.


    Reboot

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    • #3
      I never found Demon Lovecraftian myself. To me Lovecraftian would be something extra-universal or some forgotten thing out of spacetime, at least the Demons themselves. Their fortresses and the Earthbound however does have the feel. Lovecraft provoked the fear of the unknown and powerlessness. To me The Wyrm and it's minions are more Lovecraftian designwise. Since Demons are part of the universe and are the reality makers, normal people have better comprehension of a Demon's Apocalyptic Form than say a Nexus Crawler. Like so.

      Demon in Apocalyptic Form
      http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140805180934

      Nexus Crawler
      http://40.media.tumblr.com/75cd250ac...g3mo2_1280.png

      It's still a interesting game since you can take your character in three ways; redemption, rule Hell, or be a God. But the only thing I found lacking was antagonists, or lack there of. Yes I know politics is a major factor with WoD which is how Mark Rein-Hagen designed it, but I'm not a political guy. While within the world you got Earthbound, mortals, and other supernaturals, there's one type of antagonist Demon needs but lacks is the Lovecraftian Eldrich Horror. Something not of this universe yet just as powerful or even more than the Demons themselves. Cenobites (yes I give them a honorable mention cause they are not either Angel or Demon but something beyond experience), Elder Things, Old Gods, Caderian spirits ala Evil Dead. I can understand Demons fearing the Earthbound because of the possibility of serving them, but I think having something that even an Earthbound can fear would make a Demon regret going commando.

      Oh, here's a song for you Crowley.


      Onyx Path Kickstarters I back.
      W20, MtC, CB20, DtD, MtAs20, BotW20, Wraith 20th.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by David G View Post
        I have a question. In a W:tA game I'm running, where I include all of the WoD, a NPC at the high school were the character attend, attempted suicide. She succeeded and died on the way to the hospital. A low level demon than took up residence in her body. The demon is a Devil of the Luciferan faction. She had Social/Mental/Physical as her attribute priorities. She has 3 dots in Lores ( Radiance, The Flame and The Firmament). She has 4 Faith, 4 Torment and 8 Willpower. Her merits are Enchanting voice, Smooth, Good sense of Character, Great Liar, and Good recognition. Her flaws are Abusive Partner and ADD. She was a loner in school and was abused by her father. Nobody in school really noticed her, even the characters, until she killed her self at school. When she came back, she had started dressing differently and made the two girls who had abused her in school into her thralls.

        What I am wanting to know, for this character and for future reference, is what could this demon offer the girls or others to make packs with them. Also is there any way to gain faith without actually making a pack with someone? Thanks for any help you can give.
        How to Gain faith with out pacts
        If you mean like "Unlock more Faith"? you can go the EXP route
        if you mean "Recover more faith"? you can go Four ways.
        A ) Reap it (Show one of your miracles or apocalyptic form to a number of humans..this could have Consequences, but you an get a hold of the Faith of the mortals)
        B ) Consume IT (Consume another demon esscence, consume its existance before he gets kicked into the abyssm)
        C ) Pacts
        D ) Sunlight, Every morning as soon as the first light of the sun touches him. he can recover his full Faith

        Gifts for Vapid School girls?..simple, not every gift has to be metaphisical. You can make them popular, you could elaborate some sort of ritual involving your lores and offer them to tell their future and how to avoid problems in the future.

        Remember: Doing pacts with Garous is a bad idea (they will Kill you as soon as you pull it. even if they dont want to kill you)


        As for Antagonists?
        The way i see it, ALL THE WORLD OF DARKNESS WANTS YOU DEAD!
        Mages: How many mages would try to get a hold of you and turn you into a Slave? or rather, how many of them would try to kill you because of the perception of every demon beeing "Evil."
        Hunters: ...Goes with out saying
        Garous: you are a physical manifestation of Corruption to them...what do you think it will happend?
        Wraiths: Those who know the truth will send in for your arse
        Spectres: oooohhh boy, the ammount of angst in these guys and the ways they will Try to use you
        Vampires: See Mages.
        Technocracy: You are an Alien. They are The Space Marines.
        Mummies: ....seriously?
        The Camarilla: Youre the LIVING PROOF THAT CAIN EXISTED! AND THEY DONT WISH PEOPLE TO BELIVE IN THE EXISTANCE OF HIM OR THE PRIMOGENIANS!
        The Sabbath: YOURE THE LIVING PROOF THAT THERE WILL BE A GEHENNA! ONE OF THEIR CLANS IS MODELED AFTER YOU!!
        The Wyrm/Pentex: YOURE A ROCKSTAR AMONG EVIL GUYS! YOURE THE CHARLIE MANSON OF CORRUPTION INCORPORATED!!
        Faes: youre what nightmares are made Of.
        Twilight Project: ...Ever seen Twin Peaks?
        Kindread of East:...i Dunno, i never read it. not planning too (way to complex for me)
        Nephandi: See wyrm/pentex
        Marauders: COLOUR TWELVE!!

        I think i touched upon them all.
        To me, Demon is a game about "The price of having the power." since everyone wants a bite out of you for their own selfish acts

        Speaking of Supernaturals...

        How do garous explain The existance of demons?
        This hasnt been properly brought up in any book that i remember. I had this discussion with an old friend about their existance and this is What i use in My Games ( i might be wrong on the garou perspective, lemme know if im fudging things or if sounds like a paussable scenario or not)

        To me..Demons are Gaia related Incarnae, probably Majin Incarnae who were to take a role in all of Creation. But once the wyrm went insane, these also started to get corrupted and twisted. So Gaia punished them by casting them away to a prision made of their own madness, almost like the Wyrm.
        Letting the Shapeshifters take over the roles of these Incarnae as protectors of her and warriors over the creations of the Incarnae (without them knowing)


        How do Fae explain the existance of Demons?

        I repeat, i dont belive this has been properly brought in any game so im making things up as i go with the little knowledge i got on Changeling, if im wrong or i sound way too far stretch, lemme know..if you got a better explanation let me know.

        To me, in my perception and for what little i know about Changelings.

        I belive that to the Changelings - Demons are actually a collective nightmare that came from the fear of the unknown before everything existed. An idea of repulsive fear and nightmares, pure destructive caos that was sealed in order to protect the dreaming and the dreams of mindkind itself from a figure so Alien and so Mind shattering that, as a collective. could be the primordial Nightmare before the idea of Dreaming even existed.








        Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
        ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
        Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
        Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Crowley View Post
          How do garous explain The existance of demons?
          This hasnt been properly brought up in any book that i remember. I had this discussion with an old friend about their existance and this is What i use in My Games ( i might be wrong on the garou perspective, lemme know if im fudging things or if sounds like a paussable scenario or not)

          To me..Demons are Gaia related Incarnae, probably Majin Incarnae who were to take a role in all of Creation. But once the wyrm went insane, these also started to get corrupted and twisted. So Gaia punished them by casting them away to a prision made of their own madness, almost like the Wyrm.
          Letting the Shapeshifters take over the roles of these Incarnae as protectors of her and warriors over the creations of the Incarnae (without them knowing)
          Incarnae are beyond stats, and somewhat more focused than elohim on anything, since they're deputies of the Celestines that picked them from the jaggling spirits and represent a part of the Celestine's domain. Also, Maeljin are all corrupt from their very inception rather than pure things gone awry, filth passed down from filth passed down from the entrapment of Balance. Anything from the Triatic Wyrms down in the modern hierarchy of the Wyrm is a thing born of madness and corruption with no prior existence as a great and noble fallen being. You'd have to search for beings outside of Malfeas to find any of those, if they even exist.

          Werewolf was about as antithetical to Demon as it was to Mage, with the added flourish of the Fallen never getting any kind of filtered antagonist shorthand to describe their existence. It was so far away from the concerns of W:tA that what you would get probably wouldn't even kind of resemble D:tF characters even if you tilted your head sideways and squinted. Just consider the difference between the presentation of Bezariel in Rage Across Russia, and his presentation in Earthbound.

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          • #6
            Thank you very much, Crowley, this helps a lot and has given me ideas. This demon is just to give them a taste of what a demon could be like. I have a long running plot involving a demon worshiping cult that is trying to summon a powerful demon. The demon is Raziel, who in Jewish folklore gave Adam and Eve a book that explained how the universe worked. Since there are numerous legends from around the planet about gods giving man knowledge against the wishes of their kind, I wrapped them up into Raziel. Of course the book has been long lost to the ages. The cult has a fragment of it and are going to try to use it to summon Raziel. They have kidnapped a kid from the high school about a month ago game time. This kid is a local preacher's son who preached in the commons area of the school. Most of the kids heckled him every day. But the kid had True Faith and continued every day. He had done this for years before so no one took him seriously. The characters really haven't been trying to find out what happened, as other things kept sidetracking them. But they have recently gotten some clues. The cult chose the kid because of who he is and are under the impression that if they break him and despoil him he will make a perfect vessel for Raziel. The reason they are going after Raziel is they have learned of him, but not his true name from other demons that they have summoned for knowledge. Their goal is to summon Raziel, make a pact with him for knowledge and power in exchange for an earthly body. The characters have a window of opportunity to save the kid. My goal is to have them interrupt the summon ritual, but in the carnage Raziel is freed accidentally and takes the boy anyway. I am having the boys True Faith protect his soul and finally allow him peaceful transit to his just reward. During the fight, his body will give out and this is time to happen as Raziel is freed from the summoning circle. I'm going to allow the boys utter faith to help Raziel as he inhabits the boys body. Raziel will end up with Faith of 5, Torment of 4 and willpower of 8. He will have 24 dots in lores, but not right away, he will "acquire" them at 3 dots every other day after he assumes the boys body. Raziel has the following backgrounds: Eminence 4, Legacy 5. He has the following merits: Angelic Gaze, Angelic Aura, Dreams from the past, Supportive family, and Approachable. His flaws stem from his human host: Allergies, Honest to a Fault, Youthful appearance, and Stalked. When he gets his full lores, he will have: Awakening 4, The Fundament 5, Humanity 2, Light 2, Patterns 3, Portals 4, Radiance 2, Realms 2. His nature is Perfectionist, with Visionary as his demeanor. He is a Fiend, visage of Portals, of the reconciler faction.


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            • #7
              These are absolutely inspired Crowley. Thank you for collecting these rules into one spot. Ever think about doing your own website where you can store your rules in one spot for everyone to see?

              Also, what are your thoughts on the remainder of demons still in Hell? Not the higher ups, like Fell Knights, but the ordinary that might not have left. There are rules for summoning demons from The Pit, and I am thinking about pitching a game where the characters can summon, and possibly bind, their own Infernal Court.

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              • #8
                Typinvg from The cellphone.

                One: according to Days of Fire , there 99.999.999.999.999 elohim, but it also states that theres "One place for an elohim. An elohim for a place". And that one quarter fell into The Abysm. And 666 are Earthbounds

                Now, as for Raziel...lemme give ya a little piece of advice from someone who learn The rough way... Bear in mind, my demon was Tony Crowley.
                He was The Son of Aliester Crowley who was sacrificed in order to summon Death -very a la Sandman- and got Alastor instead. ( one Day i can tell ya his story)
                Now, being Alastor in The Human World was a pain. Why? Because EVERY TIME A MORTAL SAID HIS NAME, HE WAS AWARE OF IT. SO IMAGINE LIVING WITH CONSTANT WHATSSAP MESSAGES RINGING ON, 24/7, NO MUTE BUTTON AND NO WAY TO PULL IT OFF OR STOP IT.

                So, as a personal advice. Raz gotta be a little more insane than usual..think like The Máster from doctor who. Alwats seeing The faces of whomever says yer NAME. Thats one little price of having a popular NAME that and being easy to get to.
                My char's been around since 1915 (thank you Aliester) and he learned to ignore it after almost 60 years. And with Raz being that popular IMAGINE The sheer ammount of pressure a Human would get from seeing faces and listening to random people using THAT NAME everyday, specially on an era where Soul Reaver is a Thing


                As for The Website thing? Im too lazy for it, if someone does it for me. Ill be down with it

                Kudos to Draconomicon from The WoD forums who thought me The basis on DtF.

                Oh ad David, careful with True Faith. Its este to find, as rare to find as a Virgin over 23.
                Having True Faith and having a demon involved is as dangerous as having a moth covered in fuel heading to a bug zapper.
                Last edited by Crowley; 07-06-2015, 03:10 AM.


                Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
                ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
                Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
                Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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                • #9
                  I think the changelings might see demons as the nightmares of uncreation who became trapped (and thus tormented) within their own nightmare.

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                  • #10
                    Or, perhaps more poetically, the Fallen might be seen as the nightmares of eternal darkness by the Light-bringer, Lugh (similar to Loki, whose name means something like 'light-bringer'). Thus the Abyss is his nightmare of eternal darkness, where his children/siblings/heroes are kept (Lugh sired monsters and heroes like Loki, I believe).

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                    • #11
                      The World is after you is a given. But considering that Demons has complete control over the universe, the only ones I can see as a real threat would be Archmages and Mummies. Both have the capability of matching Demons' Lore abilities.


                      Onyx Path Kickstarters I back.
                      W20, MtC, CB20, DtD, MtAs20, BotW20, Wraith 20th.

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                      • #12
                        Hey, thanks for the input Crowley, but let me clarify that only the boy had True Faith, Raziel only has the boy's memories of having such strong faith. Also Raziel is may not be his true name as he is also known as Raziel, Razeel, Razial, Ratziel, and Galizur. And with my thinking that he is also the same being from other legends about divine beings giving knowledge to man, he is known by many other names such a Prometheus, Quetzalcoatl, etc.


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                        • #13
                          Hey, anybody notice this yet?

                          https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4bF_quwNtw

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mercurial View Post
                            Hey, anybody notice this yet?

                            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4bF_quwNtw
                            ...It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BEAUTIFUL DC VERTIGO COMIC!!...its more, it reminds me of my character (Crowley) xD


                            Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
                            ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
                            Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
                            Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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                            • #15
                              Thanks for the answers to my questions Crowley. What you said about Raziel being a well known name got me to thinking. Should I give him a +2 difficulty to all of his rolls to do anything to represent the distractions?


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