Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

[DarkExcalibur42]

I'd like to offer my two cents about True Faith.
As we know the core limits Faith Potential to 0-5. However, in the Storyteller Companion we have rules for summoning and binding Fallen Dukes who need a host with a Faith Potential 5+.
Further, later on it discusses relationships with other supernaturals to include Imbued Hunters, Mages, Werewolves, and the like. They Have Faith Potential 7-10.

Demon is kinda lazy, and short-hands things here. A Hunter's Faith Potential is actually equal to their highest Virtue. This demonstrates that as supernaturally infused creatures they are more potent than ordinary people.

Side note, Faith Potential is totally unrelated to True Faith, but if there were a connection I would say that it is this: humans with True Faith have a MINIMUM base of 4 Faith Potential (mmore likely the max of 5) and every point of True Faith they have after that would grant them an additional point of Faith Potential. However, no demon possessing a mortal who had previously had True Faith should really be allowed to use that Faith Potential unless the host gave itself up willingly. Storyteller ruling.

That means that someone with True Faith 5 would have a Faith Potential of 10.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I look at ToJ: Gehenna with Ferox having TF 9 as proof that True Faith is capped at 10.

For the versions prior to the anniversary edition. The scaling was changed for HH2.

[Tenkage]

I look at ToJ: Gehenna with Ferox having TF 9 as proof that True Faith is capped at 10.

[Saur Ops Specialist]

I'd like to offer my two cents about True Faith.
As we know the core limits Faith Potential to 0-5. However, in the Storyteller Companion we have rules for summoning and binding Fallen Dukes who need a host with a Faith Potential 5+.
Further, later on it discusses relationships with other supernaturals to include Imbued Hunters, Mages, Werewolves, and the like. They Have Faith Potential 7-10.
I personally have ruled that if a mortal host has True Faith 6+ that is the only way a mortal can surpass the Faith Potential limit of 5.
Going back to the summoning and hosting of demons greater than the dregs of Infernal Society, a Fallen's Faith score is equal to the host's Potential +1.
A Core Fallen starts with a Faith of 3 which informs us that they took a potential of 2 +1 for the Fallen.

This is why I like the idea of starting as mortals in any WoD story, regardless of splat. Also, do not discount True Faith. It is powerful for a reason.

Though it's worth noting that True Faith is capped at 5 as of Hunter's Hunted 2, and that demons that would be interested in getting a hold of it would probably (sunglasses) have a hell of a time accomplishing this (meetthenewbossclipmp3) due to how many powers TF5 just flat out no-sells. Demons, like vampires, are also afflicted with a supernatural fear effect when confronted with such individuals.

[Tenkage]

I'd like to offer my two cents about True Faith.
As we know the core limits Faith Potential to 0-5. However, in the Storyteller Companion we have rules for summoning and binding Fallen Dukes who need a host with a Faith Potential 5+.
Further, later on it discusses relationships with other supernaturals to include Imbued Hunters, Mages, Werewolves, and the like. They Have Faith Potential 7-10.
I personally have ruled that if a mortal host has True Faith 6+ that is the only way a mortal can surpass the Faith Potential limit of 5.
Going back to the summoning and hosting of demons greater than the dregs of Infernal Society, a Fallen's Faith score is equal to the host's Potential +1.
A Core Fallen starts with a Faith of 3 which informs us that they took a potential of 2 +1 for the Fallen.

This is why I like the idea of starting as mortals in any WoD story, regardless of splat. Also, do not discount True Faith. It is powerful for a reason.

[Mercurial]

Wait, if Kinain have human souls, then how do they have Perm Banality/Glamour?

[DarkExcalibur42]

Kinain are humans with fairy blood. Kithain are humans with fairy souls(and generally a human soul except for those dirty Sidhe). Spirit and flesh might be enough, if you can get a fairy soul from somewhere. If you're trying to make one that I'd place beyond them.

Actually.... that's a really good point. If you could use a Slayer to collect a fae soul from somewhere, you could give it a new human body to reside in via the level 5 Lore of the Spirit (Restore the Dead).

Yeah, you'd be putting a second soul into a body that already has one. But that's how Changelings work, isn't it?

[Mercurial]

Bond Artifact

Primary Lore:
Lore of Spirit 5

Secondary Lore:
Lore of Humanity 5
Lore of Celestials 5
Lore of the Firmament 3

Restrictions: The Thrall and Demon must both sit in side the sigil across from each other and have a hand submerged in a gold bowl filled with an equal amount of blood from the two individuals, and both must use their free hand to grasp the relic the Demon wishes to attune himself to. If the Ankida is not the one who is attuning himself to the relic then he must place one hand over the hands of the Thrall and Demon in the bowl and another over there hands touching the relic.

Base Cost: 72

Minimum Casting Time: 324 Minutes


System: Roll the Ankida's Perception + Empathy. If the ritual is successful, the bond between the Demon's spiritual's essence and the Thrall's soul is so complete that the Demon can spend a temporary faith point along with a permanent point of the Thrall's Willpower in order to attune himself to a relic instead of spending a Permanent Faith to attune himself to the relic.

Torment: If the ritual suffers from Torment it still works but the Thrall suffers a derangement upon the loss of the Willpower Point and the Demon attuning himself to the relic gains a Permanent Torment point as a result of wounding his Thrall's soul while so closely linked to it.

[Lian]

This is one of those far out there questions, but does anyone think that a Demon can transform a Kinain into a Changeling? I suspect it would take Celestial 5 to manipulate the magical side, Humanity 5 because they are derived from human imagination, Spirit 5 to manipulate the human side of the soul, Pattern 4 or 5 to change the Kinain in the way it have could developed if it had been a Kithain rather than a Kinain, and Lore of Flesh 5 to manipulate the spiritual/metaphysical body and reshape it into something different. Maybe Lore of Radiance 5 to bring out the hidden depths of the Fae side.

Any thoughts?

Kinain are humans with fairy blood. Kithain are humans with fairy souls(and generally a human soul except for those dirty Sidhe). Spirit and flesh might be enough, if you can get a fairy soul from somewhere. If you're trying to make one that I'd place beyond them.

[DarkExcalibur42]

Lore of Humanity was what they invented to control humans. Whatever Lucifer did to create the dreaming and its denizens (if in fact that really was him) is something else entirely. And many levels beyond simple manipulation.

The fae seem to be very much like angels in that they are beings of faith (glamour), though they were created out of humanity's dreams rather than the Creator's will. I don't think any of the existing Lores can really be directly related to them. They're something newer and different.

[Mercurial]

Dreaming is a big nono in my games, The way i see it, it has to do with The Gifts and Conciense that Lucifer gives to minkdind. Something exclusive to humans

So Lore of Humanity then?

[Crowley]

Dreaming is a big nono in my games, The way i see it, it has to do with The Gifts and Conciense that Lucifer gives to minkdind. Something exclusive to humans

[DarkExcalibur42]

tl;dr? If that's something you want to do I'd suggest writing an all new "Lore of the Dreaming" to use for this. During the war, the Slayers created their Lore of the Realms. This is not unlike that, in that it is a new arena of power which the Fallen had not previously influenced. But they could learn.

[DarkExcalibur42]

This is one of those far out there questions, but does anyone think that a Demon can transform a Kinain into a Changeling? I suspect it would take Celestial 5 to manipulate the magical side, Humanity 5 because they are derived from human imagination, Spirit 5 to manipulate the human side of the soul, Pattern 4 or 5 to change the Kinain in the way it have could developed if it had been a Kithain rather than a Kinain, and Lore of Flesh 5 to manipulate the spiritual/metaphysical body and reshape it into something different. Maybe Lore of Radiance 5 to bring out the hidden depths of the Fae side.

Any thoughts?

I think Demons have access to the very essence of reality, memories of the scattered Lores they used to literally build the universe are the source of their power. That puts them second only to Mage in terms of raw power, and possibly giving Demon a few advantages over Mages in specific scenarios. But the great machine that is the universe is decayed and rotten, turned faithless and banal through the intercession of Lucifer himself. Mages face paradox, and even demons can feel their powers diminished by the burden of human disbelief. The universe is faaaaaaaar more static and unchanging than it was in the times when the Fallen used their power with impunity. I imagine that back then, a committed demon could craft a new Lore capable of doing exactly that. But now? It would be pretty difficult to manage at all. The nearest thing I can think is that Lore of Awakening could be used in an altered way....

But the Elohim didn't make the Fae: humanity did. Lucifer was intent on unlocking the potential power of humans even back during the war. In this area, I think Mages would be more able to perform this transformation than demons, though for story reasons I would definitely consider crafting a ritual to do that. Demons would be more able to convert a kinfolk into a shifting breed than a Kinain into a Changeling.

[Mercurial]

This is one of those far out there questions, but does anyone think that a Demon can transform a Kinain into a Changeling? I suspect it would take Celestial 5 to manipulate the magical side, Humanity 5 because they are derived from human imagination, Spirit 5 to manipulate the human side of the soul, Pattern 4 or 5 to change the Kinain in the way it have could developed if it had been a Kithain rather than a Kinain, and Lore of Flesh 5 to manipulate the spiritual/metaphysical body and reshape it into something different. Maybe Lore of Radiance 5 to bring out the hidden depths of the Fae side.

Any thoughts?