Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

[Saur Ops Specialist]

The potential of Earthbounds shown in the form of Lore Mastery (can cumulatively increase most aspects of an Evocation x10 per extra Faith point spent) suggests to me that Fallens would also be capable of gathering powers within Yomi into themselves. It might result in them becoming an Earthbound (or beyond) though.
They can also make some new rituals or magic items, and the Pacting / Thralling ability of Fallens might also help in setting one as a Yama Queen or King.
So some potential is there I think, though most likely less compared to a hellbent high Arete Mage. Definitely not just by waltzing in...though with the power of some Earthbounds, and the volatility of the spirit world(s) at times.. one should never say never.

Then all you have to do is address if one of the Fallen can get anywhere in the Umbra but the Underworld.

[Prometheas]

Changelings and the fera must give the fallen a headache, coming out of the abyss being unable to comprehend anything other than the low umbra/earth region and completely convinced that they created everything. Now here are some being who have a different take on events(some even having experienced them, like surviving mokole from the war of the dragon kings), and who are also able to access part of reality the fallen never knew existed.

Imagine the demon who firsts discovers the dreaming(likely by a prank), I picture something along the lines of "Where am I? Is this an acid trip? How Am I Having An Acid Trip?!? WHAT WAS IN THOSE BROWNIES"

[loomer]

One imagines that, if one takes the Demon claim of creating all the things that are - or at least most of them, barring Her mystery works beyond the veil that no demon may pass - they would have a revelation in the High Umbra. Not 'oh, we're wrong', but the return of memories of things that can barely be grasped by their minds wrapped in human flesh, of layers they worked in in the primordial creation. Just as they physically shaped a mountain with their bare hands while simultaneously being the specific forces of erosion, extrusion, and sedimentation that created it, they worked simultaneously in its reflections in the Umbra and its concept-seed in the High Umbra. It's worth noting here the kabbalistic conception of the four worlds, as it provides a framework by which they might remember their work or at least try and explain it.

The first world, Atziluth, is the Emanation. The raw spiritual impetus underlying creation and each thing within creation's reflection in that world - the will of god, the highest order, the perfect and undivided concept of Divinity, where impulses emanate out and are reflected in the worlds below. Next, Beriah - Creation, where the permanent spirits reside, essentially a non-physical construct of the Grand Plan of the Celestial Architect, where the archangels of the Architect creates the concept and the framework of the idea and its surbordinate workers. They take the perfect and undivided conceptualization, the impulse, and construct the plans. Below it, in Yetzirah, specific angels work on a spiritual level to create the complex network of ideas, associations, and correspondences that underlie the framework, and finally, in our lowest of worlds, Assiah, the end result is the idea and the object taking the form we lowly mortals can comprehend and interact with.

To a demon, the High Umbra will not be a foreign place in a model even close to this, but a return into Yetzirah and eventually even Beriah (as you climb higher and higher and higher) - a baffling 'overlay' where physical things like Mages, Changelings, and Garou can ignore their usual limitation of residing in Assiah alone in order to interface with, interfere with, and converse with the remnant 'forms' and 'workers' they left behind in the War and their Exile - and where there is proof that those 'forms' and 'workers' are still functional, insofar as the Umbra can change to reflect human belief. It will be ground both familiar to the Demon on one level, and horribly foreign on another, as while the Demon may once have chiselled the first piece of quartz with her hands and shaped its spiritual reflection with her thoughts and interacted with the fundamental physics underlying it with her will, she did so seamlessly and without seperation. Now, as she stands in Yetzirah, she is forced to experience it from the perspective of a being locked into Assiahinic consciousness only, and so it will be dreadfully disorienting at the same time as being her old stomping ground.

[Prometheas]

One imagines that, if one takes the Demon claim of creating all the things that are - or at least most of them, barring Her mystery works beyond the veil that no demon may pass - they would have a revelation in the High Umbra. Not 'oh, we're wrong', but the return of memories of things that can barely be grasped by their minds wrapped in human flesh, of layers they worked in in the primordial creation. Just as they physically shaped a mountain with their bare hands while simultaneously being the specific forces of erosion, extrusion, and sedimentation that created it, they worked simultaneously in its reflections in the Umbra and its concept-seed in the High Umbra. It's worth noting here the kabbalistic conception of the four worlds, as it provides a framework by which they might remember their work or at least try and explain it

I personally like the "no one has the complete picture" arguement better, but that doesn't make your point any less valid.

for instance, WOD has mentioned their are infinite minor variations of the world(be they parallel timelines, multiversal reflections or connected dimensions, enough at least that it makes the umbra look small in comparison. That doesn't even go into the things beyon earth's tellurian that technocrats and etherites experience when they fly into the true void.) So the fallen may note even Be in the creation they thought they were(or they could be in a dumping ground where "failed creation" all with different origins were thrown away).

I like the mysterious "The world if far bigger than you know mage" branch of story telling.

[loomer]

The funny thing is, those minor variations are still just the material form of the emanations of the Unity becoming disunited. Everything is, ultimately, the same in the end - at least if we invoke Mage, where the 'good' endings are the world (and by that is meant not our physical world, but also all those overlapping everett volumes and umbral layers) collapsing back into Unity.

[Beriorn]

Can a vampire become a thrall? And start growing with more faith to his demon master?

No. Demon Storytellers Companion, p.69 reads as such:

Because of their undead nature, vampires cannot benefit from pacts of Fraith, nor can they be possessed by a demon.

Meanwhile, this chapter of the book also lists Imbued, Garou and Mages as possible Thralls, with their Faith Potential being in the 7-10 range. That's right, as much as four or five normal humans! There's a few risks though: Garou will show up as being pretty much Wyrm-tainted, Imbued will be seen as corrupted by other Hunters using the Sight and Mages get clues as to the Demon's True Name.

But the power reserves are big, and there's one BIG advantage to possessing an Imbued: upon doing so you gain the Hunter's Faith score. Which, again, is in the 7-10 range. This is a massive power boost for pretty much any Demon out there.

[WalkingEye]

Just a quick Question on how people run games of Demon. Lore of flesh implies that its attribute raising can go into the scope of legends. Does this mean up to 10 or do you put any limits on this on your games?

Also when using their supernatural sense. Do you put a time limit on the residue of the supernatural event, and if so could you suggest a bit of a guide line for such a thing?

[Beriorn]

Just a quick Question on how people run games of Demon. Lore of flesh implies that its attribute raising can go into the scope of legends. Does this mean up to 10 or do you put any limits on this on your games?

Also when using their supernatural sense. Do you put a time limit on the residue of the supernatural event, and if so could you suggest a bit of a guide line for such a thing?

For mortals I'd limit it in the 0-5 range. For supernaturals I'd make it go 0-10, or lower if limited by their Generation/whatever. I wouldn't make it stack however, but if you repeat it several times you are capable of picking the highest option. The risk of this is of course the system shock generated if the number of successes exceeds the subject's Stamina, causing unsoakable Bashing damage. And yes, you can use this to boost a subject's Stamina. This means that having a low dice pool (Int + Medicine) is actually helpful as opposed to having like 8+ dice. Also note that this power lasts only 1 scene.

As for the supernatural awareness, I'd make it a one-time "ding" per event, kinda like magical sonar. So if you want to use this only once to figure out a direction you better have a map on hand.

[WalkingEye]

For mortals I'd limit it in the 0-5 range. For supernaturals I'd make it go 0-10, or lower if limited by their Generation/whatever. I wouldn't make it stack however, but if you repeat it several times you are capable of picking the highest option. The risk of this is of course the system shock generated if the number of successes exceeds the subject's Stamina, causing unsoakable Bashing damage. And yes, you can use this to boost a subject's Stamina. This means that having a low dice pool (Int + Medicine) is actually helpful as opposed to having like 8+ dice. Also note that this power lasts only 1 scene.

Thanks But what about Shape Flesh. Since there is no mention of Bashing damage for stats above stamina.

As for the supernatural awareness, I'd make it a one-time "ding" per event, kinda like magical sonar. So if you want to use this only once to figure out a direction you better have a map on hand.

Seems Fair a one time Ping with a Perception + Alertness for the distance of the event or a general feel of the area with a Perception + Awareness for non specifics.

[Beriorn]

Thanks But what about Shape Flesh. Since there is no mention of Bashing damage for stats above stamina.

I reckon that Shape Flesh is a more refined version of Manipulate Flesh. The differences are:

- No damage dealt if your successes (so not if your stats exceed your Stamina) outweighs your dots in Stamina.
- Lasts a number of days, or be made permanent with a dot of Willpower.
- Can be done as an extended roll.
- Different effects from the high Torment version.
- It can also grant or remove "physical features".
- It can only affect Physical Attributes, not Mental ones.

Shape Flesh is more powerful, but as such requires a point of Faith. I'd keep with the same guidelines: 0-5 for mortals, 0-10 for creatures that can go above. Demons are stuck in the 0-5 range though. Going by the various statted Fallen in the books, even the example Earthbound stick to the 0-5 range.

[Xero_Asura]

Question about Visages. Can a Demon change their Visages completely?

Demons can never change their Visage however they can change and upgrade/downgrade their Visage Powers to different ones. Please refer to page 122 of the DtF player's guide "Changing Forms."

[racain23]

Is there any chance of DtF getting a "V20" remake? Without the religious theme decent just seems a little dull.

[Beriorn]

Is there any chance of DtF getting a "V20" remake? Without the religious theme decent just seems a little dull.

We don't know yet. The changes we're seeing with 5th edition oWoD might mean that we don't get more 20th anniversary editions. Or we might get Demon20 anyways. There's quite a bit of stuff in there that can fit in a book that HAS to be exactly 666 pages long. I'd go with a chapter order like this:

- Book 1: Elohim
Chapter 1: A World of Darkness (lore stuff)
Chapter 2: Houses of Darkness (the seven Houses and five Factions)
- Book 2: Sebettu
Chapter 3: Characters (character creation)
Chapter 4: Lores & Forms (the various powers of the Fallen, as well as the rules for DIY Apocalyptic Forms)
Chapter 5: Rules (How 2 WoD)
Chapter 6: Dramatic Systems (How 2 WoD 2: WoD Harder)
Chapter 7: Relics & Rituals (rules for relics and how to make them as well as rituals and how to perform them)
- Book 3: Earthbound
Chapter 8: Storytelling (for the ST)
Chapter 9: Pacts & Thralls (how to make Thralls, how to interact with them and how Pacts work)
Chapter 10: Antagonists (enemies, as well as rules on how to make Earthbound)
- Appendix
Merits & Flaws: Exactly what you think.

And Demon: The Descent is an entirely different beast. It's less traditional demons and more like James Bond meets The Matrix with a hint of Dogma.

[Beriorn]

I know it's a double post, but I'm wondering something: are the Fallen aware of how possession works? Or do they have to figure it out on the fly? This covers everything from the initial ability to how discorporation and subsequent options (finding a new body, becoming Earthbound etc). Going by chapter 4 of the core book we have Ahrimal explain the basics to his thrall, but we don't know how he figure it all out. Is it instinctive, or did he (like all other demons) have to figure it out himself?

[Crowley]

I know it's a double post, but I'm wondering something: are the Fallen aware of how possession works? Or do they have to figure it out on the fly? This covers everything from the initial ability to how discorporation and subsequent options (finding a new body, becoming Earthbound etc). Going by chapter 4 of the core book we have Ahrimal explain the basics to his thrall, but we don't know how he figure it all out. Is it instinctive, or did he (like all other demons) have to figure it out himself?

im aiming towards the "Its instintive"