Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

[Saur Ops Specialist]

My friend and I were debating this, because I can't stand the Garou pantheon/whatever (wyrm/wyld/weaver). He thinks they just totally misremember the Angels and have telephone gamed the real events.

I think all those weaver or wyld or wyrm spirits are actually the industrial equipment Angels/Demons used to build the world, left abandonned and... oh hey started working all on their own. Oops.

Hell, the Reapers BUILT the umbra!

Crowley asked how Werewolf would explain Demon, not how Demon would explain Werewolf.

[DarkExcalibur42]

Oh, right. The original reason I went Google searching and found this thread was that I heard a rumor that there were actual rules printed for reaching zero torment and reclaiming your angelic status (which I assumed had some rules and/or statistical reward associated), but have found nothing so far. Does such a thing exist?

OH! Page 90, Time of Judgement. Nevermind! I'll just be here enjoying the conversation.

[DarkExcalibur42]

I never found Demon Lovecraftian myself. To me Lovecraftian would be something extra-universal or some forgotten thing out of spacetime, at least the Demons themselves. Their fortresses and the Earthbound however does have the feel. Lovecraft provoked the fear of the unknown and powerlessness. To me The Wyrm and it's minions are more Lovecraftian designwise. Since Demons are part of the universe and are the reality makers, normal people have better comprehension of a Demon's Apocalyptic Form than say a Nexus Crawler.

Ohhhh.... there's Lovecraftian elements. Lemme tell you about the Earthbound.... They've gone totally batshit crazy. Not like a little bit crazy, like so crazy that even other insane Fallen look at them funny.
In the Earthbound book, they have Lore that allows them to pull unnatural things from beyond the universe and force them into the World of Darkness to do their bidding. Creatures from the elemental chaos of nothing that existed before creation. And Earthbound are willing to use those things. AND LET THEM IN.

^_^

Does that conform more with what you wanted? I mean, you mentioned the Earthbound but you didn't mention the things they consort with....

How do garous explain The existance of demons?
This hasnt been properly brought up in any book that i remember. I had this discussion with an old friend about their existance and this is What i use in My Games ( i might be wrong on the garou perspective, lemme know if im fudging things or if sounds like a paussable scenario or not)

My friend and I were debating this, because I can't stand the Garou pantheon/whatever (wyrm/wyld/weaver). He thinks they just totally misremember the Angels and have telephone gamed the real events.

I think all those weaver or wyld or wyrm spirits are actually the industrial equipment Angels/Demons used to build the world, left abandonned and... oh hey started working all on their own. Oops.

Hell, the Reapers BUILT the umbra!

Crowley, I want to thank you for starting this thread. I found it by accident, but I've loved it. I ADORE DEMON! I was a big fan of the Hunter setting, and read those and other similar books (Demon Hunter X, Hunter's Hunted, Halls of the Arcanum, Project Twilight, The Inquisition) ravenously, but when I found Demon I was like "This. This is the best thing White Wolf has ever done." Sadly no one agrees with me, and I've never once gotten to use my Demon books for more than light reading. But GAH! The potential. I love this setting.

[David G]

Thanks, that helps out a lot. Especially if Raziel gets to settle into his new life.

[Crowley]

I have another question, what happens when a Fallen is summoned while in a host body?

in my terms? the body of the human falls into a sort of coma as the demon appears infront of the humans, he cant be bound since he is already linked to another body.

[David G]

I have another question, what happens when a Fallen is summoned while in a host body?

[Mercurial]

She won't be subjected to the Veil if that makes is what you are asking. Demons are very specifically immune to mental manipulation powers. So, yeah. The demon will just see a movie monster and react accordingly.

The Garou, however, will almost certainly figure she is some sort of Fomori.

[David G]

Thanks Crowley, That helps a lot. In the game I am running (W:tA) the characters have interacted with a Fallen who has taken over a girl who tried to kill herself. The have noticed something isn't right with her. She was a nobody in school and since she has been back she has a small following of girls that hang on her every word. They grew suspicious and used various gifts to try to figure out what she is. In my game I run the Fallen as showing up as all three types of beings, ie Wyrn, Wyld and Weaver. They have used all three sense gifts on her. They are confused now since sense Wyrm failed (character botched her roll) they don't know what to think. Also they did this at school and the Fallen felt them using their gifts and zeroed in on them and looked directly at them when ever they did this. Which creeped them out even more. The characters have a kinfolk with true sight, but he hasn't been around. They talked to one of their elders, and he asked if they had sensed Wyrm on her. Since they failed the roll, they told him no. He told them to be careful, keep an eye on her, but unless she did something, that it wasn't their concern. All the Fallen is doing so far has been getting some thralls and giving them what they want.(Popularity and the envy of other students). But the characters keep snooping on the Fallen and she is getting frustrated. She can sense that they are using some sort of magic, but she doesn't know what and doesn't yet know that the characters a Garou. Which by the way, she knows nothing about. So that is a question I need to ask, would a Fallen feel anything when seeing a Garou in Crinos form? Basically, would the racial memory of the Garou come through in the thoughts and feelings Basically from her host? Or since her host never has had any experience with Garou, would the Fallen just react normally. Basically, seeing a monster in front of her and act accordingly.

If the characters are smart, they could learn a lot from this Fallen. First, she's new and not very powerful. but she does have some knowledge, especially about Raziel. Raziel hasn't arrived yet, but will shortly. Game time about 2 weeks. This is why I have been asking all these questions. I really appreciate all of your answers. I've read the books, but there is just so much, and that's not the game I am currently running. I like Demon, and would enjoy playing it. (about the only game I didn't like was Wraith).

[Crowley]

Here is another question. When does a demon's apocalyptic form manifest? How would other supernaturals notice a demon or see its apocalyptic form? Would the merit true sight see a demon for what it really is? (Sorry, a lot more questions)

in order
One: Whenever the demon wants
Two: Depends, Does the supernatural knows the Fallen Host from before?
If so, there might be changes in the personality, habits and some other things that might seem 'Off' at first if the demon doesnt follows his "Human" nature.
If not, perhaps something off, the scent, the lifeless eyes in a way, some small details (perception + awarness difficulty 10 if the demon has very low Torment, after torment 5, you start getting lower difficulties to notice it. if the demon has torment 6 , then the difficulty is 9. if the demon has torment 7, the diff is 8 and so on.)

True Sight...ok this is complex. The way I interpret this is like the Hunter's Second Sight. it DOEST GIVES AWAY..but it gives little glimpses and little tells, very subtil things..Think "Sherlock Vision."

Example:
Adam Wong is a human with True Sight, he has seen things for a long long time but never interacted with them. He is getting a musical deal and now he must meet his producer. He arrives to a recording studio where he is having an interview with Thomas Antony Crowley. he rolls perception to notices a couple of off things (3 successes and one critical hit with a 10).
Crowley ALWAYS wear his rayban sunglasses, even when its dark..he rolls int and he fails. - Perhaps Crowley has some sort of problem with Lights.
He keeps examinating this man as he notices that the Shadows around him sort of caste a weird figure around him, he rolls int and he gets one success..he notices that theres some equipment lying around that produce a "Wings" effect over his shadow
he rolls perception again and notices other Off thing, Crowley never blinks...Weird, perhaps related to his eye condition?.
one last perception roll and also notices him being almost Ivory White and that his Shadow has weird elements on it, Not just the wings but little flickers..also that he Doesnt Sweat in general...and the weird fact that sometimes he talks usually but upon touching the religious subject or the "Human Will" subject, his persona shifts from the "Cellphone Fast Talker, Tongue and cheek ironic son of a bitch and almost scottish bastard." to something more...Dettached, Omnious and he looses his accent, he seems to be almost in a Cloud from which he sees the speakers down as if they were kids or childs, as some sort of Elevated person...

[David G]

Here is another question. When does a demon's apocalyptic form manifest? How would other supernaturals notice a demon or see its apocalyptic form? Would the merit true sight see a demon for what it really is? (Sorry, a lot more questions)

[Crowley]

Thanks for the answers to my questions Crowley. What you said about Raziel being a well known name got me to thinking. Should I give him a +2 difficulty to all of his rolls to do anything to represent the distractions?

personally, i would. at least for a while since he is always listening to people calling his name.
Crowley learned to block that shit after a couple o' years, a sort of "Selective hearing."

Now, Raz would have some difficulty when it comes to social stuff or when it needs concentration...and im pretty sure he woudnt talk but rather Shout for a while, same with perception rolls

[David G]

Thanks for the answers to my questions Crowley. What you said about Raziel being a well known name got me to thinking. Should I give him a +2 difficulty to all of his rolls to do anything to represent the distractions?

[Crowley]

Hey, anybody notice this yet?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4bF_quwNtw

...It has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BEAUTIFUL DC VERTIGO COMIC!!...its more, it reminds me of my character (Crowley) xD

[Mercurial]

Hey, anybody notice this yet?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X4bF_quwNtw

[David G]

Hey, thanks for the input Crowley, but let me clarify that only the boy had True Faith, Raziel only has the boy's memories of having such strong faith. Also Raziel is may not be his true name as he is also known as Raziel, Razeel, Razial, Ratziel, and Galizur. And with my thinking that he is also the same being from other legends about divine beings giving knowledge to man, he is known by many other names such a Prometheus, Quetzalcoatl, etc.