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Demon The Fallen Thread. For is better to Rule in Earth than Serve in Heaven

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  • Originally posted by nikink View Post
    Two years late to this comment, but Ink Cloud is listed in the Earthbound book as 2 points. Given the Players' Guide specifically mentions that High Torment version of powers have a 1 point discount, and all Earthbound powers are High Torment only, one could argue the normal cost for Ink Cloud is thus 3 points. I don't think it's worth 3 points, personally. YMMV.
    Glad someone got the answer for this. Thanks!

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    • Creepy Uncle Crowley here.
      Im STILL Working on DtF20 Chapter 1 son of the return of the living dead.

      I was talking to a streamer about the game and their biggest complain is that theres not much to do on the old DtF, do you guys sense this? should the game have a bigger sense of urgency?


      Forum's Official's Joker and Trickster. Pardon my bad english, aint my first language (I Speak Spanish).
      ST: DtF, HtR, WtO, MtA
      Signature Chars: Crowley (hakalu), Joe The Nuwisha (WtA)
      Changelings: be afraid of the Technocracian High Five of Doom

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      • Originally posted by Crowley View Post
        I was talking to a streamer about the game and their biggest complain is that theres not much to do on the old DtF, do you guys sense this? should the game have a bigger sense of urgency?
        Barring their political games and the eternal search for more and better Thralls, the Fallen don't really have a lot to do. An option to remedy this is to turn the conflict between the Houses into an actual war rather than a cold war, akin to the Camarilla/Sabbat/Anarch conflict. You can't really include angels or have greater demons show up en masse without it turning into an apocalyptic scenario.

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        • Originally posted by Beriorn View Post
          Barring their political games and the eternal search for more and better Thralls, the Fallen don't really have a lot to do. An option to remedy this is to turn the conflict between the Houses into an actual war rather than a cold war, akin to the Camarilla/Sabbat/Anarch conflict. You can't really include angels or have greater demons show up en masse without it turning into an apocalyptic scenario.
          I'd argue that conflict between Factions and the agendas of said factions make up a larger part of the game. The whole point of Factions is that they are your response to finally being free.

          Ravengers want to punish the world/God by destroying creation for the sins committed against them. So what are the Ravengers trying to destroy in your area?
          The Luciferians are trying to find the Morningstar and fufil his vision. What are your loyalists doing? How does that relate to Satan?
          The Inquistitors want to know what the heck happened, to understand the grand plan that somehow includes the fall. How are your Inquisitors investigating this?

          And that is before we get to the Earthbound who want to enslave you.


          Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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          • The STV style guide for Demon 20 is neat.


            Call me Remi. Female pronouns for me, please.

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            • Originally posted by FallenEco View Post

              I'd argue that conflict between Factions and the agendas of said factions make up a larger part of the game. The whole point of Factions is that they are your response to finally being free.

              Ravengers want to punish the world/God by destroying creation for the sins committed against them. So what are the Ravengers trying to destroy in your area?
              The Luciferians are trying to find the Morningstar and fufil his vision. What are your loyalists doing? How does that relate to Satan?
              The Inquistitors want to know what the heck happened, to understand the grand plan that somehow includes the fall. How are your Inquisitors investigating this?
              Indeed, and one of the problems in Demon it's the little to nothing they elaborate these points.

              For instance, if I'm a Ravager, I want to destroy Creation. As in, the universe and then some. Trashing a neighborhood and ravaging a few mortals ISN'T conducent to the amount of destruction I want to, eventually, unleash upon the world. Releasing demons from Hell and hoping these follow the agenda it's the closest thing I have, but the most powerful demons from Hell are already out and not destroying the universe...and other than that there's very little information about what kind of actions are conducent to "destroy creation", as far as I know.

              Is there anything about how the kind of "faith weapon" that the Faustian want work? Pacts, as far as I can see, are just a way to replanish Faith - is that really all that Faustians want?. Because when they talk about their net of faith that will topple the gates of heaven...it sounds like a lot more than geting a lot of "blood points"

              Luciferians have it easier, a simple goal of tracking someone that actually does things that can be tracked, but even then it would be nice to have some data about how they do their research.

              Some canon elaboration about the Faction's goals and the activities they do to fulfill them would be interesting for those like myself who have tought that " the Fallen don't really have a lot to do" (or, rather, that they do have a lot to do, but no real plan nor places to start for the players to go out w/o the ST explicitly pointing/providing a direction)
              Last edited by Aleph; 06-03-2019, 08:39 AM.

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              • Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                Indeed, and one of the problems in Demon it's the little to nothing they elaborate these points.

                For instance, if I'm a Ravager, I want to destroy Creation. As in, the universe and then some. Trashing a neighborhood and ravaging a few mortals ISN'T conducent to the amount of destruction I want to, eventually, unleash upon the world. Releasing demons from Hell and hoping these follow the agenda it's the closest thing I have, but the most powerful demons from Hell are already out and not destroying the universe...and other than that there's very little information about what kind of actions are conducent to "destroy creation", as far as I know.

                Is there anything about how the kind of "faith weapon" that the Faustian want work? Pacts, as far as I can see, are just a way to replanish Faith - is that really all that Faustians want?. Because when they talk about their net of faith that will topple the gates of heaven...it sounds like a lot more than geting a lot of "blood points"

                Luciferians have it easier, a simple goal of tracking someone that actually does things that can be tracked, but even then it would be nice to have some data about how they do their research.

                Some canon elaboration about the Faction's goals and the activities they do to fulfill them would be interesting for those like myself who have tought that " the Fallen don't really have a lot to do" (or, rather, that they do have a lot to do, but no real plan nor places to start for the players to go out w/o the ST explicitly pointing/providing a direction)

                I think the Ravagers run into the same problem as the Nephandi on that point. Sure it's easy to destroy things with Creation a plagued by entropy as it is, but how in the Malpheas do you destroy anything Permanently? Cities can be rebuilt, humans just gravitate towards making new societies when old ones die, lost secrets are inevitably rediscovered by some punk that gets lucky, and even destroying the entire planet and wiping out all life will only set evolution back a few million years at most(the earth has done this at regular intervals throughout it's history.

                The biggest problem with Destroying Everything is that every time you think you're done, something else pops up to fill the vacuum. If mage is anything to go by, then there are also an infinite amount of parallel universes, timelines, and spacial dimensions. This means that even if you somehow managed to destroy everything in your universe, you'd only end one insignificant peace of the infinite multitude. It's maddening.

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                The Faustions I kind of understand, they first and foremost need to replenish enough to get back to where they were during the War with Heaven. It's kind of hard to build a faith based super-weapon when most of them barely have enough faith to survive, let alone be in apocolyptic form 24/7. Second, it sounds like they'd need a way of sustainably awakening or at least empowering enough thralls with some semblance of magic. They're currently lesser versions of themselves all around and having a supply of mages/sorcerers (who aren't trying to bind them as slaves, I'm looking at you Order of Hermes) become a collective powerful enough to rival The Creator was kind of the original plan. Finally, they need to figure out where in the Tellurian that Heaven/The Host/God actually Is so that they can start laying down some vengeance fueled carpet-bombings.

                This all means the Faustions need a massive complicated plan that is unlikely to ever really get anywhere without other factions(and probably the direct intervention of Lucifer himself) helping out.

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                Luciferians and Cryptics have the easiest goals by far for sure.

                Luciferians just need to find Lucifer, He's alive and partying in Los Angelos. They don't know that, but just need to figure that out.

                The Cryptics just want to know what they heck is going on and then figure something out from there. If anything from the other splats is cannon in the game they're in, then they're going to be very confused and the fallen probably aren't even in their original universe/timeline/thing anymore(Blame it on a Mage messing something up, it's what I do when things don't make sense).

                The Redeemers are there too.

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                • Originally posted by Prometheas
                  I think the Ravagers run into the same problem as the Nephandi on that point.
                  Nephandi at least can believe that by freeing the lords of Outer Dark That Were Here Before Creation (or the Wyrm) they can bring out the end...They may be wrong, but they don't have a way of knowing before trying

                  The problem with Ravagers it's that they ARE those Dark Lords That Existed Before...and still don't have a reliable way to *do* it.

                  One would think that having built the universe they would know how to unravel it's principles and what forces need to be defeated in order to do so. It would be nice for them to have an overcomplicated, perhaps even impossible, plan to do it...and that's all I'm asking

                  I mean, If I'm Sabbat I know I have to eat the Antediluvians. I'm certain to fail (or worse, "succeed" like Tremere) but at elast I can strive to *go* there and make some advances eating lesser Elders, defeating the *puppets of the Camarilla*, and dancing wildly with the ritaes, to sligthlty improve my chances. Or that's what the Elders say...

                  ...the point isn't that is a *lie* but that *I* as player can do something with it (and the ST hasn't to tell me to do so)

                  The Faustions I kind of understand, they first and foremost need to replenish enough to get back to where they were during the War with Heaven. It's kind of hard to build a faith based super-weapon when most of them barely have enough faith to survive, let alone be in apocolyptic form 24/7. Second, it sounds like they'd need a way of sustainably awakening or at least empowering enough thralls with some semblance of magic. They're currently lesser versions of themselves all around and having a supply of mages/sorcerers (who aren't trying to bind them as slaves, I'm looking at you Order of Hermes) become a collective powerful enough to rival The Creator was kind of the original plan. Finally, they need to figure out where in the Tellurian that Heaven/The Host/God actually Is so that they can start laying down some vengeance fueled carpet-bombings.
                  So...the Faustians are in survival mode and trying to re-build an army to bring the world back to the age of War?. And then want to create mages to do their job for them?. "Hell needs YOU" mentality it's interesting, but needs a lot more develop, because merely building personal pacts helps yourself, but it'sway too little for the army.

                  For instance, it would be nice if they were stated to be grooming mages/Sorcerers, if that's what they want. For real. Because that's not what thralls are. Thralls may have one or two low level powerz (most humans can't really muster the Faith potential to learn more), but they can't learn, they can't teach, they're just an extension of your own power. A faction that spreads magic and has to fend against others that want those secrets to remain secret may have something for the players to do

                  Right now Earthbounds are much closer to the goal of "living like in the days of the War" (with their Cthulhu ancient citadels and big cults funneling faith) - but they're crazy and alone. What if Faustians had found a waith to "co opt" such "faith technology" w/o all the insanity and more organization? - they just need to test their theories...and that's where the players enter

                  It would be nice if there was some data about how the Faustians build their *power base*, then. They could be a veritable "Camarilla" of Demons combined with "Black Hand" if they were working as an "Order of the Old Ways"

                  Go outside and make lots of pacts to survive it's nice, but it's not much of a long-term goal for the players by itself (and, really. ANY Demon that values a steady supply of Faith has that goal).

                  Luciferians and Cryptics have the easiest goals by far for sure.
                  Indeed they have. Still, for the Cryptics I have to point out that "go outside and learn supernatural stuff - what stuff?, any stuff as we know nothing about what's going on" it's not much of a guide. Luciferians at least have an idea about what they have to find and very good reasons to do so (them being the loyalist of a headless army and all that).

                  The Redeemers are there too.
                  They have it easier than Ravagers, but they're fucked by the book stating that Redemption it's a myth, nobody managed it, and there's 0 leads about how to get it.

                  A Vampire that wants to reach Redemption has vague legends, in particular the Golconda, to follow. That led to a bajillon of stories like the Inconnu, wizards that may make it possible (but at what costs!), and other esoteric misteries that allow a degree of freedom, like the Children of Osiris.

                  What do Demon players have? - a book telling them that no one has a clue, it may well be impossible, but Demons have Faith so lower your Torment and pray all day, maybe the ST it's nice and invents something for you
                  Last edited by Aleph; 06-06-2019, 09:33 AM.

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                  • So just wondering, maybe I should make this another thread, they talk about rumors of Mortal Sorcerers discovering how to Eat Demon Spirits. What do you think the effects would be? This would be a good source of antagonists, Mortal Ritualists with Access to Lores and maybe developing Demonic Form Traits from Eating Celestial souls.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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