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Chimera dying and leaving reflections in the Dark Umbra?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

    No, in short. Only things from the mortal world create reflections in the Underworld. The chimera itself can't. But perhaps the person who spawned the chimera might be able to leave such flotsam adrift in the Tempest when they die.

    Similarly, I expect only things from the mortal world could create reflections in the Dreaming. And although a chimera could perhaps discover a trod to the Underworld, I doubt it would survive the journey. Though some wraiths seem to have made the return journey...

    You could have a plasmic that *thinks* it's a chimera--perhaps some haunting memory left behind by a changeling that was Undone. Maybe it's part of some Thorn possessed by the dead changeling's Shadow. Undone changelings don't remember their pasts, so it could be a wraith's lost memories of being fae intruding upon it, trying to get it to remember (or let go).
    Can a dreamer create a chimera AND a plasmic that ressemble it in the Underworld?

    We are thinking too much on objective reality, but we can't forget that chimeras are DREAMS... In a sense, they don't really "exist" in a material sense, except as ephemeral constructs of the thought... Even if someone can Interact with them in a "physical" way when visiting the Dreaming, they are not physical, just things made of Glamour... And Glamour isn't really "a thing" - isn't matter, isn't energy... It's just ephemeral ressonance... So, chimeras don't really exist at their own, as independent beings, rather being constructs born from the minds, thus they are dependent in a metaphysical level on the minds of the dreamers... And, since they are glamour manifestations of thoughts, and since the plasmic beings of the Underworld are ALSO manifeststions of thoughts in the form of plasm, why can't one really powerful "thought" ressonate in both realities?

    Note, I never said that chimera can appear in the Underworld after chimerical death like a sort of "glamour wraith" in a literal simplistic way. But we must consider that the Dream and the Underworld (or all Umbra) doesn't exist as separete entities by themselves, no more than the material world can exist without the spirit realms.

    Lets imagine an hipotetical just born chimera. Lets say that this chimera spends some hundreds of years growning in the Dreaming. Over the course of time, that Chimera starts getting a lot of momentum, "infecting" the dreams of many dreamers, to the point that the "Grim Reaper" or the "Bad Wolf" gains a special place upon peoples imaginations.

    Now, millions upon millions imagine and dream about the Grim Reaper.

    Upon death, many wraiths think about the dreadful figure.

    Wouldn't that much psychic emanations leave it's impressions on the Underworld?

    That's what I mean about "leaving different images on different surfaces".

    You guys are thinking about chimeras, or plasmics, or umbrals, as independent beings on their own. They are not. They exist as an interaction with the material world (and vice versa). So, a Chimera is not simply "born" into the Dreaming - it is a new thought pattern that arises into some corner of the mind of at least ONE dreamer that gives it substance.
    A Chimera cannot be created if no one has ever thought about it.
    Same way with plasmics.

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    • #17
      The reverse can also be true, and in fact I'm almost sure it is; now, lets try some imagination exercises...

      Lets imagine a happy powerful Spectre living in the Labirinth, highly moliated to look like a beast from Hell... One day, he decides to go "up" and torment the living. He uses his arcanoi to enter the living dreams, showing his dreadful form to them in hellish nightmares.

      Surprise surprise... A new Chimera is born in the Dreaming, one that reseembles a lot our good specter (possibly, it wouldn't be an EXACT copy of him, because it would be highly dependant on the perceptions that the dreamers had of him, and not on his actual real form).

      See what I mean?

      Yes, the Dream and the Underworld do not DIRECTLY interact by any means... But both Interact with the material world. And the emanations that one send to the material world, may disturbe the metaphisical Waters of the other plane... It would be like the shadow of a shadow. As if the material world acted as a "filter" for those emanations.

      By the way, now that I came to think about it, perhaps all the Umbras work like this... That's why they may overlap and touch one another sometimes...

      After all, what truly is a "hell hole" in the Dreaming that creates a DIRECT connection with the Underworld?

      Comon guys, those places are not physical realities, but rather metaphysical conceptual realities.

      So... What does it mean a "whormhole" connecting two different realities in the Umbra? Its not just about spacial geography... This kind of event has a deeper meaning.

      So, when our happy Spectre of my example creates a Chimera in the Dream by his actions... We are talking about a psychic emanation (the Spectre) creating psychic emanations on the material world (his delightful nightmares), that end up creating a disturbance in the Dreaming.

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      • #18
        Lets try to imagine it with an analogy. Lets visualize an aquarium. Inside the aquarium, we have water, outside, we have air. Between the two, we have glass.

        Now, the water inside doesn't Interact with the air outside by no means. They both only Interact with the glass.

        But, if you punch the aquarium on one side, it will create shock waves on the other.

        And if you punch it hard enough, it will create fissures were the water would escape.

        Now, in that analogy, the glass would be the material world. And when our happy spectre creates a Chimera (by accident, mind you, he has no idea that he is doing it), he is punching the glass so hard that it leaves a fissure, were some of the substance from one side may flow to the other.

        That could be the metaphysical illustration of the reason why one of the Umbras touches another. Basically, a disturbance in one side strong enough to break the barrier of the physical world

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

          Can a dreamer create a chimera AND a plasmic that ressemble it in the Underworld?

          We are thinking too much on objective reality, but we can't forget that chimeras are DREAMS... In a sense, they don't really "exist" in a material sense, except as ephemeral constructs of the thought... Even if someone can Interact with them in a "physical" way when visiting the Dreaming, they are not physical, just things made of Glamour... And Glamour isn't really "a thing" - isn't matter, isn't energy... It's just ephemeral ressonance... So, chimeras don't really exist at their own, as independent beings, rather being constructs born from the minds, thus they are dependent in a metaphysical level on the minds of the dreamers... And, since they are glamour manifestations of thoughts, and since the plasmic beings of the Underworld are ALSO manifeststions of thoughts in the form of plasm, why can't one really powerful "thought" ressonate in both realities?
          Not entirely true.

          Note, I never said that chimera can appear in the Underworld after chimerical death like a sort of "glamour wraith" in a literal simplistic way. But we must consider that the Dream and the Underworld (or all Umbra) doesn't exist as separete entities by themselves, no more than the material world can exist without the spirit realms.
          Not entirely true.

          Lets imagine an hipotetical just born chimera. Lets say that this chimera spends some hundreds of years growning in the Dreaming. Over the course of time, that Chimera starts getting a lot of momentum, "infecting" the dreams of many dreamers, to the point that the "Grim Reaper" or the "Bad Wolf" gains a special place upon peoples imaginations.
          Not entirely true.

          You guys are thinking about chimeras, or plasmics, or umbrals, as independent beings on their own. They are not. They exist as an interaction with the material world (and vice versa). So, a Chimera is not simply "born" into the Dreaming - it is a new thought pattern that arises into some corner of the mind of at least ONE dreamer that gives it substance.
          A Chimera cannot be created if no one has ever thought about it.
          Not entirely true.


          Maggie Carroll
          Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
          Working On: Book of Freeholds
          Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

          Comment


          • #20
            Another example: "lord Grim Reaper, a powerful Chimera from the Mid Dream,, lives in an unholy castle made of skulls of the dead. Legend says he has a portal connecting to the High Umbra in his castle."

            What does a portal from the Dreaming to the Astral Umbra means, in a metaphysical sense?

            It sure isn't simply about geography... Like I said, that's why you use Spirit and not Correspondence to deal with those conceptual realities. That "portal" is not JUST a connection between point A of one reality and point B of another.

            Maybe, it's the crackle were the concept of Death and the imaginations of it mix toghether? If you go inside the portal, you may enter the "halls of Hades", the castle that represents the intelectual concept of Death in the mids of the humans. This is also were lord Hades take residence, the incarna of Death in the High Umbra.

            So, the portal connecting the castle of the Grim Reaper in the Dreaming and the Halls of Hades in the High Umbra, actually is an achetypical representation of the nightmares caused by the idea of Death.

            So, when a person thinks about death, she is getting her mind connected to the Astral concept of Death. She is considering all the abstract concepts about what Death means.

            But also, when considering those questions, her mind makes the person imagine the skeletal figure of the Grim Reaper.

            And so, a metaphysical connection between the High Umbral Hades and the chimerical Grim Reaper forms... Something that someone exploring the spiritual realities could perceive as a "portal", or bridge, or tunnel, or whatever, between the two realities

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            • #21
              One more example? The conceptual "Palace of Love" in the High Umbra may have a portal linking to the chimerical houses of Romeo and Juliette - meaning: when many people think about love, they start imagining about Romeo and Juliette drama.

              A 3 way door on the depths of the oceans can send you to the spiritual manifestation of water in the middle Umbra, to the Palace of Neptune on the High Umbra, or to the house of Aquaman on the Dreaming (or the house of Ariel, the mermaid of Disney).

              And so on

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              • #22
                Does the Grim Reaper and Lord Hades of my hypotetical examples interact with one another?

                Maybe. Maybe not.

                Maybe they are best buddies, telling jokes all the time to one another across the mirror that connects their houses, maybe only one can see the other across the rabbit hole, or maybe they are both oblivious to the fact that there's even a dimensional anomaly in their houses connecting their different realities. It would all depend on the MEANING behind such interactions

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Maggie C View Post

                  Not entirely true.



                  Not entirely true.



                  Not entirely true.



                  Not entirely true.
                  Not entirely helpful. Could you elaborate?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Karlgust View Post

                    Can a dreamer create a chimera AND a plasmic that ressemble it in the Underworld?

                    We are thinking too much on objective reality, but we can't forget that chimeras are DREAMS... In a sense, they don't really "exist" in a material sense, except as ephemeral constructs of the thought... Even if someone can Interact with them in a "physical" way when visiting the Dreaming, they are not physical, just things made of Glamour... And Glamour isn't really "a thing" - isn't matter, isn't energy... It's just ephemeral ressonance... So, chimeras don't really exist at their own, as independent beings, rather being constructs born from the minds, thus they are dependent in a metaphysical level on the minds of the dreamers...




                    Chimera tend to be drawn out of the minds of Dreamers, sure. But there are components to this shallow interpretation that don't require a specific Dream, but the accumulated weight of aggregate dreams, over time. If you stop to consider ancient horrors people have forgotten about, they exist without specific Dreams to sustain them. So now you're into a chicken-and-egg situation: did the chimera come out of the Dream, or did the Dream come out of the chimera? Regardless, chimera can and do exist without needing to depend wholesale on Dreamers.

                    Also, Glamour is not resonance; it's a power source (an energy), like Quintessence or Gnosis, that springs from a different plane of origin (ie: the Dreaming).

                    Note, I never said that chimera can appear in the Underworld after chimerical death like a sort of "glamour wraith" in a literal simplistic way. But we must consider that the Dream and the Underworld (or all Umbra) doesn't exist as separete entities by themselves, no more than the material world can exist without the spirit realms.



                    The Dreaming is a separate entity from the Umbra in that it has its own pathways, doorways, realms and rules. Generally speaking, shapechangers cannot step sideways into it, because they cannot see it without being Enchanted. Generally speaking, mages cannot create doors into it for much the same reason. The "Arcadia" Realm of the Umbra may or may not be the same Arcadia changelings talk about (but probably isn't). Chimera are not Umbrood; they're chimera. They belong to, in and of the Dreaming, which is a separate entity from the Umbra and from the Astral planes.

                    Lets imagine an hipotetical just born chimera. Lets say that this chimera spends some hundreds of years growning in the Dreaming. Over the course of time, that Chimera starts getting a lot of momentum, "infecting" the dreams of many dreamers, to the point that the "Grim Reaper" or the "Bad Wolf" gains a special place upon peoples imaginations.



                    Not entirely true. See answer #1.

                    You guys are thinking about chimeras, or plasmics, or umbrals, as independent beings on their own. They are not. They exist as an interaction with the material world (and vice versa). So, a Chimera is not simply "born" into the Dreaming - it is a new thought pattern that arises into some corner of the mind of at least ONE dreamer that gives it substance.
                    A Chimera cannot be created if no one has ever thought about it.



                    Not entirely true. See answer #1.


                    Maggie Carroll
                    Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
                    Working On: Book of Freeholds
                    Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I think the problem here is you're trying to apply Mage logics to Changeling. It would work much better on the Mage forum.

                      But to address some of the point you raised:

                      -A chimera seen by a mortal is highly unlikely (not impossible because world of Darkness & DM fiat) to create any Echo, because the Mist would just erase any lasting trace from the human conscious

                      -A Wraith, Dragon, Frankenstein etc, either from the Umbra, Underworld or even some crazy monster or creation of a madman is not the thing creating the Chimera, it's the perception/imagination/dream of the Mortal. To really emphasize, that, you just have to realize that the creature doesn't have to exist to have a Chimera be created, an Illusion from a Ravnos of it or even hallucinations from a dernagement would do it just as well

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        While it's conceivable that a thought or memory might create a chimera and a plasmic simultaneously (and perhaps astral forms too), a plasmic isn't a chimera. It's never been part of the Dreaming. So it's not really accurate to use the term in any way to describe what's been created. They're both just shadows on different walls of a cave with the same object creating both.

                        Originally posted by Maggie C View Post
                        The Dreaming is a separate entity from the Umbra in that it has its own pathways, doorways, realms and rules. Generally speaking, shapechangers cannot step sideways into it, because they cannot see it without being Enchanted. Generally speaking, mages cannot create doors into it for much the same reason. The "Arcadia" Realm of the Umbra may or may not be the same Arcadia changelings talk about (but probably isn't). Chimera are not Umbrood; they're chimera. They belong to, in and of the Dreaming, which is a separate entity from the Umbra and from the Astral planes.
                        Is this specifically a retcon in C20 or an issue of semantics? In second edition, at least, the Dreaming did exist in the Umbra, but didn't adhere to its usual topography. Rather than being part of the High, Middle or Low Umbra, it was described as being like a vein of ore that runs through and between all the strata. Mage always connected it to Maya, although that was always debatable, but the Dreaming was at least always thought to be somewhere in the Umbra--just not an easily found or easily defined place.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                          Is this specifically a retcon in C20 or an issue of semantics? In second edition, at least, the Dreaming did exist in the Umbra, but didn't adhere to its usual topography. Rather than being part of the High, Middle or Low Umbra, it was described as being like a vein of ore that runs through and between all the strata. Mage always connected it to Maya, although that was always debatable, but the Dreaming was at least always thought to be somewhere in the Umbra--just not an easily found or easily defined place.
                          There are some things about changelings and the Dreaming that are absolutely true in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, but aren't true in Changeling: The Dreaming. Likewise, there are things that are absolutely true about mages and vampires in Changeling, that don't make any sense within their own game.

                          Because of this, most crossover questions don't really have a definitive answer. The answer always has to start with which game line's lense you're looking at the question through. That will, more often than not, radically change the answer.

                          It's also why my answer to crossover questions is always what would work best for your chronicle 😉


                          Charlie Cantrell
                          Onyx Path Freelancer
                          Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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