Chimera dying and leaving reflections in the Dark Umbra?

[idpersona]

So this came up as part of a tangent in the Vampire forums. I figured I'd ask if this sounds right to anyone here, since there will be people here who are much better versed in Changeling than I am. (I've edited the quote to leave out some non-chimera focused tangents)

It's not that the quimera will sink in the Dream and surface into the Shadownlands.

...

it's not that the "soul" of a Chimera is thrown into the Shadownlands after chimerical death; you're taking a too much literal approach to a very subjetive tópico. No, the destroyed chimera's "soul" does not go to the Underworld - but it may create a lasting shadown of it's former self there.

So, probably the vast majority of gnomes that roam in the dream, are only generical chimeras, not especial enough to create a significant plasmic shamdown in the underworld. When you kill one of those, they are GONE. However, when Sigfried killed the mitghy dragon Fafnir on the norse myth, you can be sure that a shadown of Fafnir had enough emotional ressonance, or enough psychic power, to create an plasmic encarnation of Fafnir into the Shadownlands. It's not the same creature however, in a literal sense, the chimerical Fafnir was slain and forever gone, and the plasmic encarnation of Fafnir in the Shadownlands is just a being that were "birthed" in the womb of the Void, without having ever existed in the material world or the Dream previously. For the plasmic Fafnir, however, that would all sound like metaphisical bullshit (not the real Fafnir? You puny mortal... I lived on the Dream for thousands of years before that bastard Sigfried tossed me into this forsaken hell, but one day I'll return to enact revenge!), since the creature will keep the all the memories and personalities it had before it's "birth". It's like a mirror - the imagem looks exactly like you, but it is not you.

...

You are interpreting metaphisical ideas as physical processes. They are not. Dimensional Science will teach you that just fine

So, in a sense, the "soul" of a chimera can go to the Shadownlands. But not in a literal sense. No more than I enter a mirror when photons hit me, hit the mirror and get back to me, the "psychic waves" caused by a strong chimera can cast a mirrored shadown of itself in the Underworld. Ghosts, after all, are exactly that - psychic emanations strong enough to make an cohesive manifestation on the Shadownlands.

So I guess my question specifically, is do you guys think any part (or reflection) of a Chimera (Not a Changeling) goes to the Shadowlands/Underworld/Dark Umbra upon its death? I had always assumed this was handled entirely within the realm of the Dreaming.

[Luka C]

Short answer: It is. Chimera are made of Glamour, and one way or another, it is wholly recycled into the Dreaming when it dies.

[Karlgust]

Yet, you may find mirror shades of mythical beasts and fantastic creatures in the Shadownlands.

But you'll also find the same reflexes in Middle or High Umbra too. So... Lets say, for example, that there is a particular dragon at the Dream called Fafnir. You can find the chimerical Fafnir in the Dream, the creature born of the imagination of the dreamers.

But that's not the only Fafnir out there.

In the High Umbra, in the realm of the Norse Myth, you'll also find a Fafnir... Not a chimera thou, but an umbrood that represents the intelectual concept of Fafnir. What's the difference between the two? For one, the Fafnir of the Dream is more impredictable. Like the Dream itself, he changes. And may change according to the dreamer that imagine him. But, the Fafnir of the High Umbra, represents the collective notion of Fafnir. So, he is more bound to his role. The High Umbral Fafnir would represent pure mischief, and the pure terror and power of an dragon. He is the incarnation of those cconcepts. But the Dream one, on the other hand, would have several other collors that would add layers to his personality. So, if he were wandering a particular happy place of the Dream, he would be peacefully sleeping, in fact, only making the scene look more beautiful and extraordinary; but if he were in the middle of a Nightmare, he would look like a terrible Spawn of hell, eating poor defenseless chimerical villagers.

Now, you may also find a Fafnir in the Tempest, or in the Labirinth, of the Low Umbra. It may be a twisted version of him - maybe even an undead look like version of Fafnir. It may have some substancial differences from both the High Umbral and the Dream versions, it is very likely that this version of Fafnir is no longer what the modern living think of him, so he is the reflex of a bygone image of him - maybe we all believe in modern age that Fafnir were a black dragon, but norse believed him to be a red one? In that case, only the dead from the times of the nords still remember him been red (or the occasional Vampire/mummy/mage/other from the period). So, the Fafnir in the Underworld is red, but the ones of the High Umbra and the Dream are black.

None of those versions of Fafnir are the same creature, or the same spirit. Probably, not even are any of those the TRUE Fafnir. They are all just reflexes, mirrored images, cast on different surfaces.

[idpersona]

For one, the Fafnir of the Dream is more impredictable. Like the Dream itself, he changes. And may change according to the dreamer that imagine him.

...

But the Dream one, on the other hand, would have several other collors that would add layers to his personality. So, if he were wandering a particular happy place of the Dream, he would be peacefully sleeping, in fact, only making the scene look more beautiful and extraordinary; but if he were in the middle of a Nightmare, he would look like a terrible Spawn of hell, eating poor defenseless chimerical villagers.

You keep saying "the Dream". I just want to make sure you do in fact mean the Dreaming, and not the Dream Realm(s) written about in Mage or Werewolf, which are places that are not the Dreaming.
That being said, I don't agree to your interpretation of how Chimera in the Dreaming work. Chimera don't wander from place to place changing personalities as they go. There could very well be multiple similar Chimera, born of different people's dreams, but they would each be distinct entities.
Again, I welcome people more knowledgeable with Changeling than I to chime in. It's been a decade since I've read through my Changeling collection fully.

Now, you may also find a Fafnir in the Tempest, or in the Labirinth, of the Low Umbra. It may be a twisted version of him - maybe even an undead look like version of Fafnir. It may have some substancial differences from both the High Umbral and the Dream versions, it is very likely that this version of Fafnir is no longer what the modern living think of him, so he is the reflex of a bygone image of him - maybe we all believe in modern age that Fafnir were a black dragon, but norse believed him to be a red one? In that case, only the dead from the times of the nords still remember him been red (or the occasional Vampire/mummy/mage/other from the period). So, the Fafnir in the Underworld is red, but the ones of the High Umbra and the Dream are black.

The Bygones that retreated to the Deep Dreaming should no longer be affected (physically) by what people think they should look like. The ones that are still around from the before the Sundering should very much be exactly as they were I think. That was kind of the whole point of having retreated. But as stated in the other thread, I feel like at this point you've wandered away from anything canon has to say on the subject and are presenting your headcanon as how the cosmologies fit together.

CtD (from memory) had little to say on the subject of the multiple Umbras and how they relate to the Dreaming. Changeling, more than most of the lines (possibly because it didn't get as much of a chance to expand since it didn't have a Revised edition) was it's own thing.

[Karlgust]

The Dreaming, not the illusions of Maia. I said "The Dream" for simplification

[Karlgust]

Not changing personality, just adjusting some of its colors. In times of peace, a chimera lord will be... Peaceful. In a war dream, he'll be a warrior. Same person, different scenarios.

But in the High Umbra, Fafnir will always be mischief and cruel, althouth cunning. Always. No exceptions made.

[Karlgust]

I didn't said the world "bygone" as a reference to primordial spirits long gone. You are too literal, and overall, that's just a scarecrow argument. If you prefer, replace the example of Fafnir for Frankenstein for instance. The chimerical Frankenstein (not the possibly real one created by an Etherite in the Victorian England) is modern enough to have been born AFTER the sundering right? (And Fafnir may also fit that requirement). Just replace Fafnir with Frankenstein and move foward from that, and please, not using scarecrows. Suffice is to say: there is a good likelyhood of finding at least one Frankenstein in the Dreaming, one in the Shadownlands, and one in the High Umbra.

[Karlgust]

Besides, the "real" original Fafnir that possibly retreated to Arcadia, is not the same Fafnir (one or more) you would find in the Dream today, and that one can change over time

[idpersona]

I didn't said the world "bygone" as a reference to primordial spirits long gone. You are too literal, and overall, that's just a scarecrow argument. If you prefer, replace the example of Fafnir for Frankenstein for instance. The chimerical Frankenstein (not the possibly real one created by an Etherite in the Victorian England) is modern enough to have been born AFTER the sundering right? (And Fafnir may also fit that requirement). Just replace Fafnir with Frankenstein and move foward from that, and please, not using scarecrows. Suffice is to say: there is a good likelyhood of finding at least one Frankenstein in the Dreaming, one in the Shadownlands, and one in the High Umbra.

I used the word Bygone, as in Bygone Bestiary. The magical beasts of old (dragons being about the most famous examples).

My intent was not the use a "scarecrow argument". I am coming to this discussion in good faith. I was directly referencing the example given.

Using Frankenstein's Monster instead, I would say there are certainly more than a few Chimera born of that concept. Any powerful Dreamer who has read any of the books, or seen any of the movies could potentially spawn their own Chimera version of it. And this is to say nothing of Changelings that might deliberately craft one from the Dreaming. Each and every one would be a distinct Chimera with its own origins and motivations.

[Karlgust]

To finish it: the chimera fit a narrativa, while the High umbrals fit a concept.

That's why the Dreaming and the High Umbra are not the same (as one would imagine, since both are creations of the mind)

[nothing]

Wraith guy here.

The Underworld is the realm of memory and emotion, and while there may be Plasmics that resemble Chimera, actual Chimera fade back into the Dreaming upon demise.

Cheers!

[adambeyoncelowe]

Wraith guy here.

The Underworld is the realm of memory and emotion, and while there may be Plasmics that resemble Chimera, actual Chimera fade back into the Dreaming upon demise.

Cheers!

Seconded. There may be a plasmic Fafnir, although it's more likely to be a spectre Moliated into that form. It wouldn't be the ghost of a dragon, though, as only humans have counterparts in the Underworld (with some very few exceptions). It's suggested that non-humans can't create wraiths, and that their memories and passions instead coalesce only as the far flimsier beings known as plasmics and the various effluvia of the Tempest. They're tatters and shards of being, because they don't have the will or sentience to become wraiths. But wraiths and spectres often take on more impressive forms or claim legendary identities to bolster their strength (perhaps through Memoriam).

[Karlgust]

Seconded. There may be a plasmic Fafnir, although it's more likely to be a spectre Moliated into that form. It wouldn't be the ghost of a dragon, though, as only humans have counterparts in the Underworld (with some very few exceptions). It's suggested that non-humans can't create wraiths, and that their memories and passions instead coalesce only as the far flimsier beings known as plasmics and the various effluvia of the Tempest. They're tatters and shards of being, because they don't have the will or sentience to become wraiths. But wraiths and spectres often take on more impressive forms or claim legendary identities to bolster their strength (perhaps through Memoriam).

But, could it be a plasmic?

I'm not saying that a chimera, or any other kind of spirit (or other unspoken things) become "wraiths" upon their dismiss. All I'm saying is that the Low Umbra can be affected by strong enough psychic emanations... Were do all the angelics or beasts that roam the Tempest come from? Not all of them are simply "moliated ghosts". Some are just plasmics. Shards of thoughts.

What is a chimera after all, if not a thought?

What I'm saying, is that strong thoughts can cast a reflexion on the Low Umbra (and sometimes, the shadows beyond the mirror of death can cause disturbances on the lands of the living).

Such a creature would not be the "deceased soul a a chimerical being", that makes no sense. Its just a shadow (here I use the word "shadow" as a metaphor, I'm not talking about the destructive counterpart of the self of a Wraith) of the original "thought" (chimera, or high umbral, or middle umbral, whatever)

[Luka C]

What is a chimera after all, if not a thought?

Glamour. Influenced by dreams.

[adambeyoncelowe]

But, could it be a plasmic?

I'm not saying that a chimera, or any other kind of spirit (or other unspoken things) become "wraiths" upon their dismiss. All I'm saying is that the Low Umbra can be affected by strong enough psychic emanations... Were do all the angelics or beasts that roam the Tempest come from? Not all of them are simply "moliated ghosts". Some are just plasmics. Shards of thoughts.

What is a chimera after all, if not a thought?

What I'm saying, is that strong thoughts can cast a reflexion on the Low Umbra (and sometimes, the shadows beyond the mirror of death can cause disturbances on the lands of the living).

Such a creature would not be the "deceased soul a a chimerical being", that makes no sense. Its just a shadow (here I use the word "shadow" as a metaphor, I'm not talking about the destructive counterpart of the self of a Wraith) of the original "thought" (chimera, or high umbral, or middle umbral, whatever)

No, in short. Only things from the mortal world create reflections in the Underworld. The chimera itself can't. But perhaps the person who spawned the chimera might be able to leave such flotsam adrift in the Tempest when they die.

Similarly, I expect only things from the mortal world could create reflections in the Dreaming. And although a chimera could perhaps discover a trod to the Underworld, I doubt it would survive the journey. Though some wraiths seem to have made the return journey...

You could have a plasmic that *thinks* it's a chimera--perhaps some haunting memory left behind by a changeling that was Undone. Maybe it's part of some Thorn possessed by the dead changeling's Shadow. Undone changelings don't remember their pasts, so it could be a wraith's lost memories of being fae intruding upon it, trying to get it to remember (or let go).