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Where's counter magic?

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  • Where's counter magic?

    The only way I can see to counter magic in C20 is to Invoke the Autumn, and that only works against chimerical cantrips.

    So am I missing something or was counter magic really removed from the game?

  • #2
    I was asking around about this myself, keep thinking I've missed something, but no one else seems to be able to find it (or an equivalent to it) either. The ability does seem to be gone.

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    • #3
      It's looking like counter magic is tucked into the cantrip system but not explicitly called out as such. Fae 5 lets you target cantrips. Quite a few level 1 Arts could be used to counter cantrips cast against you, namely Hopscotch. Legerdemain 1 might work, but only slows a cantrip.

      Though there is some potential synergy with Dragon's Ire 1 and Fae 5. Basically boosting any other damaging cantrip. Legerdemain 3 could create a copy of a cantrip. Metamorphosis 1 might be able to change a damaging cantrip into a protective cantrip...it can change a man into a woman, an old car into a new one, and a $5 into a $100.

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      • #4
        The old unweaving rules should maybe go back in?


        Writer, publisher, performer
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rabbit Pooka View Post
          It's looking like counter magic is tucked into the cantrip system but not explicitly called out as such. Fae 5 lets you target cantrips. Quite a few level 1 Arts could be used to counter cantrips cast against you, namely Hopscotch. Legerdemain 1 might work, but only slows a cantrip.

          Though there is some potential synergy with Dragon's Ire 1 and Fae 5. Basically boosting any other damaging cantrip. Legerdemain 3 could create a copy of a cantrip. Metamorphosis 1 might be able to change a damaging cantrip into a protective cantrip...it can change a man into a woman, an old car into a new one, and a $5 into a $100.
          I would argue that it can't change defensive Cantrip into offensive. But it can change flavour and it might have some serious implications, based on how creative you are. Imagine Eldrtitch Prime + wood based conjuration coupled with Meta 1 and a bit of botany erudition - you are a miracle worker in the making. Plants have such a variety of useful and harmful traits.


          ...

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          • #6
            Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
            The old unweaving rules should maybe go back in?

            They are boring, requiring fae 5 to mess with cantrips isn't really a big disadvantage I mean it gives you a base pool of six dice after all.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Lian View Post


              They are boring, requiring fae 5 to mess with cantrips isn't really a big disadvantage I mean it gives you a base pool of six dice after all.
              All fae could counterweave before if they had Gremayre (although the rules were admittedly unclear in 2e too). Now, if you don't have Fae 5, you have to spend a significant amount of Glamour. Before you needed the same Realm as was used to cast the cantrip OR Fae 5, which gave you more options. You also need to channel it through an Art to make it work now too.
              Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 05-07-2017, 08:08 AM.


              Writer, publisher, performer
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              • #8
                You can always steal and repurpose Countermagick rules from Mage. They're okay.

                To be consistent with the rules, I'd advise rewarding player's creativity.

                If your player has a Cantrip, that she can believably use to counter, evade or break an offensive Cantrip (turn into fire to avoid being burned, etc) - why not?
                Fae 5 would just give her a broader list of options because now she can affect Cantrip directly. Gremayre I'd reserve for identifying and unweaving long-term Cantrip effects.

                Also, Unleashing. Trumps everything, but risky and has consequences.
                Last edited by Firkraag; 05-07-2017, 09:46 AM.


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                • #9
                  M20 p545:
                  Basic Countermagick
                  • Sphere Knowledge: To oppose another character’s Effect, you need to have at least one dot in at least one of the Spheres that are being used to attack you. You can’t resist a Forces-based assault, for example, if you don’t understand Forces.
                  •The Roll: Assuming you have the essential Sphere(s), make an Arete roll. InMage 2nd, the difficulty for that roll is 7. (Under the Reckoning metaplot inMage Revised, it’s 8.) We suggest leaving the difficulty at 7.
                  •Successes: Each success rolled deducts one success from the attacker’s successes. If the incoming Effect’s results were based upon theMagickal Feats chart, then the incoming spell is less
                  effective than it would have been otherwise – see the Degrees of Success chart instead. If that attack depended upon a certain number of successes, the assault fizzles completely.
                  M20 p546:
                  Night-Folk Counterspelling

                  Vampires, werewolves, faerie beings, and other paranormal entities have a chance to resist a mage’s Arts… and the mages can often resist Night-Folks’ abilities too. Although such monsters don’t use countermagick in the way that mages do, their innate abilities give them a certain degree of protection.

                  Dice Pools

                  Night-Folk can use the equivalent of basic countermagick. Instead of Arete, such entities use their Wits + Occult as a dice pool. However,that dice pool cannot exceed the Gnosis or Rage (whichever is higher, for werecreatures), Willpower (vampires, spirits, wraiths, demons, hunters, and hedge wizards), Glamour (changelings and other fae), Mystic Shield (Bygones), or True Faith (faithful humans) Trait of the Night-Folk character. Essentially, those Traits reflect the metaphysical capacity of the target character. If a werewolf, for instance, has a Wits + Occult dice pool of six but a Gnosis of 4 and a Rage of 3, then she cannot use more than four dice as countermagick.

                  If the targeted creature does not have a Wits + Occult dice pool, then the Storyteller may rule that the character cannot resist True Magick – see Optional Limits, below. That said, a mage needs certain Spheres in order to harm a member of the Night-Folk. As shown on theCommon Magickal Effects chart (p. 508), Life Sphere magick alone cannot affect vampires, werebeasts, ghosts, spirits, or the fae.

                  Diffculties and Limits

                  Whatever dice pool you employ, the difficulty for such rolls is either 6 or the mage’s Arete, whichever is higher. This way, a powerful werewolf or vampire can shrug off the Arts of an amateur Mage, but a powerful wizard or Technocrat can wipe the floor with supernatural foes.

                  On a related note, the Night-Folk cannot counter immediate-damage attacks like plasma bolts or Enlightened martial arts, nor can they oppose indirect assaults like weakened floors, fire, typhoons, and so forth. The only way to counter a mage’s attack is to recognize it as a mystic assault. Thaumaturgical counterspells won’t prevent a Virtual Adept from using Enlightened Hypertech to hack the vampire prince’s bank account.
                  To give an example, how and what changelings apparently can counter in Mage.


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                  • #10
                    I suppose you could resist with Glamour (difficulty 7/8). Would be nice to get some proper rules though.


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                    • #11
                      Keep in mind it's one point of Glamour per missing Realm, not per missing level of Realm. So at most you spend one extra point to target a Cantrip.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by zenten View Post
                        Keep in mind it's one point of Glamour per missing Realm, not per missing level of Realm. So at most you spend one extra point to target a Cantrip.
                        Ahhh... That makes sense!


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                          All fae could counterweave before if they had Gremayre (although the rules were admittedly unclear in 2e too). Now, if you don't have Fae 5, you have to spend a significant amount of Glamour. Before you needed the same Realm as was used to cast the cantrip OR Fae 5, which gave you more options. You also need to channel it through an Art to make it work now too.
                          Which I find very OOCly banal. Magic duels should be about cunning and wit. Like "I throw a fire ball at you" "I counter with water!" or "I create a barrier of stone!" or "I make myself so fast I dodge" or "I trick it into hitting you" vs "I throw a fire ball at you" "No you fail suck it"

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