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What Fearful Symmetry: the Thallain

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  • #16
    Originally posted by FallenEco View Post
    The Diatyas Mu Courts are better dark reflections than the Kura Sau. The later have exactly one write up in cannon; in Sunset Empires. They are called out as incapable of learning Alchemy. In fact, said write up has them knowing Kuei-Jin disciples and suggests black magic from the Yama Kings. Lian's references to chi imbalances apply here, as the Kura Sau only have Yang or Yin.
    I do think you meant to say that their only Canon write up is in Blood and Silk. Hac Tao on the other hand is suggested to be portrayed through whatever powers the ST wishes. The only constant in Hac Tao is that it culminates in the Blood-Jade Dagger powers leading to it are varied and the ST is encouraged to use whatever Fomori powers, gifts, discipline powers Etc. To represent the multilayered art. Rest of their powers are represented through Kuei-Jin disciplines, like you mentioned, namely so that the Yin Kura Sau wield the equivalent of Yin Prana and the Yang ones use Yang Prana, but neither need to use the complex katas and movenents the Kuei-Jin need to practice to use them. Both types are suggested to have access to powers equivalent to the Demon Arts of the Kuei-Jin.

    And though the Kura Sau used to be Hsien whom made deal with the lords of Yomi they have long since been corrupted and twisted enough to loose any elemental affinity they used to have. Yin ones resemble rotting corpses while the Yang ones are supernaturally beautiful.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Possessed View Post
      I do think you meant to say that their only Canon write up is in Blood and Silk. Hac Tao on the other hand is suggested to be portrayed through whatever powers the ST wishes. The only constant in Hac Tao is that it culminates in the Blood-Jade Dagger powers leading to it are varied and the ST is encouraged to use whatever Fomori powers, gifts, discipline powers Etc. To represent the multilayered art. Rest of their powers are represented through Kuei-Jin disciplines, like you mentioned, namely so that the Yin Kura Sau wield the equivalent of Yin Prana and the Yang ones use Yang Prana, but neither need to use the complex katas and movenents the Kuei-Jin need to practice to use them. Both types are suggested to have access to powers equivalent to the Demon Arts of the Kuei-Jin.

      And though the Kura Sau used to be Hsien whom made deal with the lords of Yomi they have long since been corrupted and twisted enough to loose any elemental affinity they used to have. Yin ones resemble rotting corpses while the Yang ones are supernaturally beautiful.
      You are right. Mistakes like that happen when i binge read. Sorry.


      Thoughts ripple out, birthing others

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      • #18
        Did I just dream it up or get it from canon that Satyr Thallain were more like baphomet or cloven hooded horned devils? I also could see minotaurs as appropriate Thallain. Nasties seem odd, just dirty creepy satyrs?


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #19
          That's a cool idea, as I still don't get the Nasties as their own kith. Like, a dark reflection of a satyr is still a satyr, just...well...nastier. They're still basically the same dream

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          • #20
            It feels now that the Thallain are the most diverse group, they have lesser numbers then the Kithain but at the same time their is a Thallain for each Kithain and many Gallain as well as just unique Thallain.


            So I feel like Beasties should use something like the idea for Dragonkin making a form using a chimera point system. Since the true forms aren't simple animals, but hellish beasts. Or since they seem inspired by the Delirium of Shapeshifters their true forms should use a customizable attribute booster like when shapeshifters transform.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #21
              Do remember that Tolkien based the Orcs on Italian Fay. Orcos, Orchi, and Orculli. As orcs and Satyrs have a common origin (Fauns and Satyrs are the classical forms of the creatures that later folklore changed into Orcs and Arabian Ghouls, and the Greek apelike Christmas Goblins). Let the Satyrs have Orcs for Thallain.

              By the way. A group of Irish fay whose name in Gaelic means "the men in red coats" would be grand Clurichaun Thallain. They are mainly like Leprechauns but they are compelled to perform brutal practical jokes. These "jokes" tend to leave trails of broken bodies and minds.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                Nope, they're Kithain. They're just either rarer kiths in general (river hags, oba, ghille dhu), or they're kiths that aren't as common in Concordia (but are elsewhere — korred, merfolk, morganed, wichtel, wolpertinger).

                The korred, morganed, wichtel, and wolpertinger almost certainly have a Thallain counterpart of some sort. River hags and oba are sub-kiths of redcaps and eshu. Their counterparts may just be ghasts and aithu, but who knows what strangeness might come out of the Dreaming.
                Okay I can see most of those just being rarer Kithain, but the Merfolk seem like definite Gallain. They weren't part of the same changeling way ritual and are born in eggs in the see and Worship Vatea. They seem even more alien to the Kithain then the Nunnehi, and they have their own noble houses rather then the Kithain noble houses.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  Okay I can see most of those just being rarer Kithain, but the Merfolk seem like definite Gallain. They weren't part of the same changeling way ritual and are born in eggs in the see and Worship Vatea. They seem even more alien to the Kithain then the Nunnehi, and they have their own noble houses rather then the Kithain noble houses.
                  Hold that thought, for a topic I plan on posting soon that is to the Gallain as this thread is to the Thallain.


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                  • #24
                    So Thallain are pretty NPC! But are they able at all to be positive, or have kind pleasant aspects for say their personal family?

                    For instance I want to have a Thallain based off of Eustace Bagge, Probably a Bodach. He is mostly a grumpy doucher who loves to be a Sadist, but he will be Married to a lady named Muriel. And this will be the crux of things, because they adopted and raised a child that became a Dog Pooka, Courage. Courage protects Muriel, and I plan that he ignores most of Eustice's curmudgeonly behavior because he knows Muriel loves him. Meanwhile Eustace is mostly selfish, but in some manner he does care for Muriel, if anything because he considers her his.

                    How likely can you have a Thallain like a Bodach, or hell I may even import Wizened, be married, and if the wife is old and naive she never notices and thinks he is just crotchety? Like does he go about causing trouble outside his farm and wify never notices. Or should I just have him be a Dauntain or just some weird Creepy douchey mortal?


                    Also what about non Grump Bodachs? Seems weird to have a Childling Bodach...


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      So Thallain are pretty NPC! But are they able at all to be positive, or have kind pleasant aspects for say their personal family?

                      For instance I want to have a Thallain based off of Eustace Bagge, Probably a Bodach. He is mostly a grumpy doucher who loves to be a Sadist, but he will be Married to a lady named Muriel. And this will be the crux of things, because they adopted and raised a child that became a Dog Pooka, Courage. Courage protects Muriel, and I plan that he ignores most of Eustice's curmudgeonly behavior because he knows Muriel loves him. Meanwhile Eustace is mostly selfish, but in some manner he does care for Muriel, if anything because he considers her his.

                      How likely can you have a Thallain like a Bodach, or hell I may even import Wizened, be married, and if the wife is old and naive she never notices and thinks he is just crotchety? Like does he go about causing trouble outside his farm and wify never notices. Or should I just have him be a Dauntain or just some weird Creepy douchey mortal?


                      Also what about non Grump Bodachs? Seems weird to have a Childling Bodach...
                      I actually really like this interpretation of the Thallain and I love the Changeling-ifying of Courage the Cowardly Dog.

                      To me, yes, the Thallain are Monsters but they are so much more than that. Monsters can still have people they do care about and people who love them back no matter their flaws for better or for worse. Think of it like this, A Boggart Grandmother runs her little community with an Ironfist, picking apart people with her words and her claws, everything in her little world runs like clockwork and everyone knows not to cross her; she does show a different side when around her loved ones though, yes she is still controlling and can still just as easily hurt with both hands and words but she doesn't need to, she Controls her family through her love and if they disappoint her she lets them know exactly how much she is disappointed. The Boggart let's them know when they haven't been visiting enough, when they don't call often enough, every little flaw that her family does she lays bare before them....and yet they still love and Care about her because she knows how to temper her nightmarish discipline with Love and nothing is more Valuable than the Love and Protection by People who consider you family.

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                      • #26
                        Preface: I have always run Changeling slightly different from cannon or what a majority of fans seem to prefer. So, all of the following is only marginally based on stuff from the 1st and 2nd ed books and results from over a decade of house-rule fiddling.

                        I use the nine original Kiths as broad archetypes, each as a type of Dream (generally the idea of something better than what is). Community, Adventure, Progress, Wisdom, Hunger, Passion, Nobility, Secrets and Strength. And as such, each has a counterpart sworn to Nightmares (things being worse than they are). Selfishness, Recklessness, Destruction, Madness, Terror, Obsession, Tyranny, Corruption and Brutality. And then there are those who fall to Apathy (nothing ever changes so why bother). Isolation, Boredom, Complacency, Ignorance, Placidity, Insensitivity, Bureaucracy and Impotence.

                        So those who serve the Seelie and Unseelie Courts of the Dreaming are Boggins, Eshu, Nockers, Pooka, Redcaps, Satyrs, Sidhe, Sluagh and Trolls, while those who serve the Nightmare Courts of the Fomorians are Bogarts, Kokou, Goblins, Beasties, Rawheads, Imps, Dullahan, Bogies and Ogres.

                        Pooka are creatures of (sometimes obtuse) Wisdom; Beasties are creatures of Madness. And their nameless dream-eaten counterparts of embodiments of Ignorance.

                        Such is my house rule system, at least.


                        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                        • #27
                          There's a reason there are no inanimae thallain, and the answer to that is in the early parts of Kithain history. 😉
                          Last edited by Rigistrade; 06-01-2017, 10:27 AM.


                          Krister M. Michl
                          Freelance writer / Current Projects: C20 Player's Guide, W20 Book of Oblivion, CofD: Dark Eras 2
                          Entry on White Wolf Wikipedia

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rigistrade View Post
                            There's a reason there are no inanimae thallain, and the answer to that is in the early parts of Kithain history. 😉
                            That sounds ... ominous.

                            To be honest, the closest I'd ever come to a thallain-like inanimae was a monster concept for Hunter: The Reckoning called "Serial Killer Barbie", a Mannikin who kept killing people and taking over their lives Single White Female style only to keep freaking out and murdering their significant other once the reality of things didn't live up to the fantasy. But, as I've said, I'm very weird.
                            Last edited by No One of Consequence; 06-01-2017, 03:59 PM.


                            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                            • #29
                              I have been writing a doc with a bunch of House rules and mechanics to make the Thallain more "Playable" because i love them
                              By playable i mean by adding more mechanics do their Endowments, Frailties, i also added revelries and affinity realms for all of them and even created a Inanimae Thallain(Who anchor themselves in Fungi).
                              I don't think it is finished or if it is perfect mechanic wise, but i roll with it whem i make an One-shot and someone wants to play a Thallain(I generally allow it because i love them).
                              The only Thallain who i didn't added or edited even one single thing in their mechanics where the Ogres, so props to them.

                              ( Also, i read the guy who talked about the "Courage Thallain thingy", i loved it and it put a smile in my face, thank you. )

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                              • #30
                                Only a basic rough draft, but what do you guys think?


                                Oni:

                                For such simple creatures, there is much mystery surrounding the nature and origins of the Hsien known as the Oni. Historical records indicate that they were once malicious spirits who amused themselves by preying upon mortals and ruining their lives. But over time, they came to be associated with punishers of wickedness and guardians over various territories. One theory among the Hsien is that their exile caused the Oni to see the error of their ways, and they now seek to repent for their misdeeds by turning their aggression towards more productive ends. Because of their conflicting nature of being either helpful or malicious towards society, there is much debate over whether or not the Oni are more closely related to Trolls or Ogres by those of western stock.

                                In the eyes of the Kithain, the Oni's true forms are easily mistaken to be some oriental variation of Trolls, often from Japanese ancestry. They can be quite large, ranging between 7 to 10 feet tall and usually sport between 1 to 2 horns on their heads. What differentiates them from their western counterparts, however, is their somewhat demonic characteristics. Many Oni are known for having monstrously large fangs and sharp claws instead of nails on their fingers and toes. Their skin tone is most commonly red or blue, though rare individuals have been known to sport green, purple or ebony versions. Traditionally, they garb themselves in the pelts of large predators, including tigers and bears.


                                Fortune: Wood


                                Luck:

                                Stronger Than Strong - Among the ranks of the Hsien, the Oni have become synonymous with overwhelming levels of brute strength that go far beyond what their physical appearance would otherwise suggest. Oni receive a bonus of +2 Strength at character creation, even if this would put them over 5. Additionally, they can never botch a Strength roll.


                                Curse:

                                Oni are said to be vulnerable to the holly plant, which can protect its barer from their supernatural powers. Oni can not invoke any of their supernatural abilities as long as they are within 20 feet of the plant's vicinity. Additionally, weapons made using holly inflict aggravated damage against Oni.


                                Wani Powers:

                                As if their brute strength wasn't enough, the claws and fangs of the Oni's true form make them even more deadly in close quarters. While in this form, their unarmed attacks inflict (Strength +1) Lethal damage, while their jaws can inflict a (Strength +2) Lethal bite attack.

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