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are there changelings with two seelie legacies and no unseelie

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  • are there changelings with two seelie legacies and no unseelie

    if ones with two unseelie exist..then why not the opposite?

  • #2
    C20 retcons out the Thallain having two Unseelie legacies - they have a permanently dominant Nightmare legacy instead, with a secondary legacy that's most often Unseelie.


    Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by marin View Post
      C20 retcons out the Thallain having two Unseelie legacies - they have a permanently dominant Nightmare legacy instead, with a secondary legacy that's most often Unseelie.
      I wonder if it was done, so player characters won't feel any remorse for murdering them.

      "See, they're bad. It's even in their character sheet."


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Firkraag View Post
        I wonder if it was done, so player characters won't feel any remorse for murdering them.

        "See, they're bad. It's even in their character sheet."

        It was more to differentiate Unseelie from "fifth column" also Dreaming doesn't care how righteous you feel killing a fellow aspect you'll still get the banality from it.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lian View Post


          It was more to differentiate Unseelie from "fifth column" also Dreaming doesn't care how righteous you feel killing a fellow aspect you'll still get the banality from it.
          There's a difference between Dreaming and Players. And Banality cost is not as high, as moral one.


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          • #6
            I still feel that the Unseelie Legacies are too negative myself. Despite all that's been made of Seelie vs Unseelie not being good vs evil, their Legacies run against that. In the game I run, I allow them to be interchangeable; you have to take one Seelie, one Unseelie, but you can swap them. So an Unseelie Paladin is entirely possible, somebody who lives for competition and perhaps plays a bit too much by their own rules in doing so.

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            • #7
              The writer of that section of C20 actually said in this forum that he agrees (or at least implies he did), but didn't think he should change which court each legacy goes to in the 20th anniversary edition.

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              • #8
                Keep in mind also that Kithain Legacies aren't meant to be taken in isolation. On their own, they're pretty extreme, but they're never on their own. They always have the character's opposite court Legacy influencing the dominate Legacy. I even introduced a new mechanic in C20 to drive this home.

                Edit: If I had it to do over again, I'd probably go a little farther than I did on the changes to the Legacies, but I'm not unhappy with how they turned out. I did tone down most of the Unseelie Legacies quite a bit from their second edition incarnation. For others, I made sure to give a reasoning for the behavior beyond simply evil — maybe teaching a lesson or maybe revealing uncomfortable truths. I'd also take a hard look at making Wayfarer Unseelie and Ringleader Seelie to better match up with the community vs. individuality divide between the courts.
                Last edited by PookaKnight; 06-08-2017, 08:46 AM.


                Charlie Cantrell
                Onyx Path Freelancer
                Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                • #9
                  See, that's it. I think a lot of the Legacies can be seen in different ways. Seelie is order, community, light, law, stasis. Unseelie is chaos, individuality, dark, choice, change. Both have positive and negative aspects, and I feel that a majority of the Legacies could work for either, though each side would see them through a different lens. I think, too, the exclusion of the Players' Guide Legacies is kind of sad, as they added a lot more options.

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                  • #10
                    I kind of want to invert the Ravaging/Musing setup. Seelie farm you. They farm your dreams humans are live stock and the world is safe and secure as such. The Unseelie are driven to the new, to dangerous..

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Windthin View Post
                      I think, too, the exclusion of the Players' Guide Legacies is kind of sad, as they added a lot more options.
                      I tried. Several times even. Word count's a thing.

                      That being said, they're still in the Players Guide and perfectly usable.


                      Charlie Cantrell
                      Onyx Path Freelancer
                      Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                        I tried. Several times even. Word count's a thing.

                        That being said, they're still in the Players Guide and perfectly usable.
                        BTW, do you know why M20 is bigger, than C20?

                        I think, if given the same page space and with some of the more exotic kith thrown out (it's not like Hsien are worth anything without their own rulebook) you could've fit in that and much more.


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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Firkraag View Post
                          I think, if given the same page space and with some of the more exotic kith thrown out (it's not like Hsien are worth anything without their own rulebook) you could've fit in that and much more.
                          That's not really the place of an anniversary edition. They have their fans, and it would be a pretty big disservice to those fans to leave them out when C20 is supposed to be an overview/compilation of Changeling's original run.


                          Charlie Cantrell
                          Onyx Path Freelancer
                          Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Firkraag View Post

                            BTW, do you know why M20 is bigger, than C20?

                            I think, if given the same page space and with some of the more exotic kith thrown out (it's not like Hsien are worth anything without their own rulebook) you could've fit in that and much more.

                            because you need to beat your mage group into submission have you seen Mage Flamewars?

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                              That's not really the place of an anniversary edition. They have their fans, and it would be a pretty big disservice to those fans to leave them out when C20 is supposed to be an overview/compilation of Changeling's original run.
                              But is it worth it, if all of the book suffers for it, both rules and extras?

                              And you answer only part of my question. M20 is objectively bigger. C20 could spend a hundred pages more for core and alternative rules.
                              Last edited by Firkraag; 06-09-2017, 10:42 AM.


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