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  • Eldagusto
    started a topic Where's the Nymphs?

    Where's the Nymphs?

    So we have Nymphs as part of the Kuberas (Though really they should be a subgroup of Ondines) in C20. But back in the older changeling books, like many 2nd ed ones they have Nymphs as part their section talking about Gallain, separate from Inanimae. So were they originally planning another group of Changelings that they never got around to for Nymphs? Were they changed to Merfolk last minute, though that is a Saltwater change? Should I treat mentions of them separate from the Inanimae sections of opinion as just part of the Inanimae?

    Or do you think, Wish Upon a Star, that we will someday get a Nymph Gallain?

    How do you think they would be different? I'm guessing they will be similar to Merfolk in that they consider themselves all Nobles, and they are usually separated from humanity. Perhaps they were planning on separating Nymphs into kiths, like Nymphs, Dryads, Nereids, ect, and maybe even adding in things like Apsaras.


    Did any of the Writers ever comment on this back in the old forum days?

  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    Maybe we are talking past eachother. I am saying a mix of technology and supernatural is explicitly part of the werewolf genre. You don't need to include some sort of crossover for it to happen.
    You do need crossover for technology to be a form of magic, which is solidly Mage. Apologies for the confusion. The relevance of this stance is in how the narrator dismisses human magic as a thing to worry over, and basically just says that technology is what they have instead, which is kind of a middle finger to Mage's accounting of the world.

    Except what they are saying is explicitly wrong even in a "No other games except werewolf exist" perspective. From a PURELY werewolf perspective humans DO have access to various supernatural capacities. IF they didn't then you know.. wyrm cults wouldn't be a thing.
    The humans cease to become human in that regard, as the spirits first reshape them.

    I will compare the opinion on "humans don't have any form of supernatural powers except maybe science" to every other tribe book which has something to say about humans with some form of supernatural power. If this really was a Revised "go out and kill all crossovers" thing and not a commentary on Glasswalker lack of wisdom why does EVERY OTHER REVISED TRIBEBOOK have something to say on Mages

    I am not expecting them to have Virtual Adept buddies or secret Technocracy backdoors or any sort of crossover discussion like that, I am saying the Glasswalkers alone among every tribe saying "nope humans can't do anything that's not mundane science" is meant to show a serious flaw in the tribe.
    It wouldn't have been written that way without the way Revised shaped out, but fair point. Revised tribebooks sometimes ran into stumbling blocks, and sometimes just failed completely (eyes CoG revised copy on shelf).

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    Book of the Wyld was also kind of a preview for new spirit-mechanics, coming out as it did fairly close to the edge of the edition. One of the first places where Essence showed up in place of Power!
    Book of the wyld is soldily in revised at least from what I can tell from printing.



    Cyberfetishes were first introduced in Werewolf and are a distinctly Werewolf thing, since they're spirits bound into implanted objects and kept together solely because the bodies of Garou and Fera have inherent spirit power to do so. I doubt that they'd work out so well for Mage.
    Maybe we are talking past eachother. I am saying a mix of technology and supernatural is explicitly part of the werewolf genre. You don't need to include some sort of crossover for it to happen.


    Except for the era in which it was written, where crossover got flushed and Umbral Pilots received a head-shaking. This is beyond some commentary on the tribe; it's out into the metatext of being really hard against crossovers and past attitudes present in the game.
    Except what they are saying is explicitly wrong even in a "No other games except werewolf exist" perspective. From a PURELY werewolf perspective humans DO have access to various supernatural capacities. IF they didn't then you know.. wyrm cults wouldn't be a thing.

    I will compare the opinion on "humans don't have any form of supernatural powers except maybe science" to every other tribe book which has something to say about humans with some form of supernatural power. If this really was a Revised "go out and kill all crossovers" thing and not a commentary on Glasswalker lack of wisdom why does EVERY OTHER REVISED TRIBEBOOK have something to say on Mages

    I am not expecting them to have Virtual Adept buddies or secret Technocracy backdoors or any sort of crossover discussion like that, I am saying the Glasswalkers alone among every tribe saying "nope humans can't do anything that's not mundane science" is meant to show a serious flaw in the tribe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    For some reason I thought it was revised since that's when Wyld also came out but I was mistaken.
    Book of the Wyld was also kind of a preview for new spirit-mechanics, coming out as it did fairly close to the edge of the edition. One of the first places where Essence showed up in place of Power!

    I think you are very hung up on the Technomagic aspect. And cyberfetishes were still a thing in that book so I'm going to keep that there.
    Cyberfetishes were first introduced in Werewolf and are a distinctly Werewolf thing, since they're spirits bound into implanted objects and kept together solely because the bodies of Garou and Fera have inherent spirit power to do so. I doubt that they'd work out so well for Mage.

    This has nothing to do with mage. Crossovers, "magic is science" and what have you except.. the Glasswalkers profoundly failing in that direction. The person explaining Mages explains magic doesn't exist. That Humans have no capacity to do mystic things like Gifts and Rites. This is OBJECTIVELY wrong even by pure werewolf standards.

    The Glasswalker goes on to say any tale of "humans doing magic" is just other tribes being too stupid to understand technology. Its meant to show a PROFOUND failing among the Glasswalkers and their arrogance towards other tribes and lack of wisdom.
    Except for the era in which it was written, where crossover got flushed and Umbral Pilots received a head-shaking. This is beyond some commentary on the tribe; it's out into the metatext of being really hard against crossovers and past attitudes present in the game.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    There was material that allowed for Technocrat overlap with some very Werewolf touches, and none of the fetishes or devices within it were technomagick. In any case, Book of the Weaver is from the crossover-happy 2nd edition, so it's not really topical for the outlook in Revised.
    For some reason I thought it was revised since that's when Wyld also came out but I was mistaken.



    No, it's that Revised hates crossover with a vengeance, and that it was trying to make sure that every line was clearly on its own to focus on its own endgame. By the time we get to the Time of Judgment run-up, the notion that any other games play a part in these swan song volumes is a few paragraphs at best. Witness also Vic Stryker getting an actual pack instead of hanging around vampires, mages, and changelings.

    Mage and Werewolf are also pretty thoroughly antithetical to each other and present extremely different settings in their respective books. So if Werewolf chooses to cut Mage out of the loop completely... that's pretty much just a low-conflict way of focusing back on Werewolf.

    (The 2nd edition GW tribebook talked about caern draining and getting Uktena to fight them for you, but only seemed focused on mysticks.)
    I think you are very hung up on the Technomagic aspect. And cyberfetishes were still a thing in that book so I'm going to keep that there. This has nothing to do with mage. Crossovers, "magic is science" and what have you except.. the Glasswalkers profoundly failing in that direction. The person explaining Mages explains magic doesn't exist. That Humans have no capacity to do mystic things like Gifts and Rites. This is OBJECTIVELY wrong even by pure werewolf standards.

    The Glasswalker goes on to say any tale of "humans doing magic" is just other tribes being too stupid to understand technology. Its meant to show a PROFOUND failing among the Glasswalkers and their arrogance towards other tribes and lack of wisdom.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post

    Except everything in book of the Weaver.
    There was material that allowed for Technocrat overlap with some very Werewolf touches, and none of the fetishes or devices within it were technomagick. In any case, Book of the Weaver is from the crossover-happy 2nd edition, so it's not really topical for the outlook in Revised.

    Also the whole opinion that "mages don't exist" is pretty much objectively wrong by what they are saying even ignoring the whole mage line of games, the opinion was humans have no rites to command or control the spirit world(which if they even had good enough records they'd know wasn't true from Wild West days). The lesson we learn from the Glasswalker book is that their Galliards are shit.
    No, it's that Revised hates crossover with a vengeance, and that it was trying to make sure that every line was clearly on its own to focus on its own endgame. By the time we get to the Time of Judgment run-up, the notion that any other games play a part in these swan song volumes is a few paragraphs at best. Witness also Vic Stryker getting an actual pack instead of hanging around vampires, mages, and changelings.

    Mage and Werewolf are also pretty thoroughly antithetical to each other and present extremely different settings in their respective books. So if Werewolf chooses to cut Mage out of the loop completely... that's pretty much just a low-conflict way of focusing back on Werewolf.

    (The 2nd edition GW tribebook talked about caern draining and getting Uktena to fight them for you, but only seemed focused on mysticks.)
    Last edited by Saur Ops Specialist; 06-12-2018, 12:40 PM.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Saur Ops Specialist View Post

    It was for the Revised tribebook, so it's not quite so nuts - the opposition to crossover meant that unless you wanted them to exist, they wouldn't. Additionally, the narrator mentions that humans don't work magic, but do have miraculous technology, which, again, is in keeping with Werewolf not copping to Mage's postmodern view of fusing magic and technology into the same thing, ever.
    Except everything in book of the Weaver.

    Also the whole opinion that "mages don't exist" is pretty much objectively wrong by what they are saying even ignoring the whole mage line of games, the opinion was humans have no rites to command or control the spirit world(which if they even had good enough records they'd know wasn't true from Wild West days). The lesson we learn from the Glasswalker book is that their Galliards are shit.

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  • Saur Ops Specialist
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    What? Really what page that sounds nuts?
    It was for the Revised tribebook, so it's not quite so nuts - the opposition to crossover meant that unless you wanted them to exist, they wouldn't. Additionally, the narrator mentions that humans don't work magic, but do have miraculous technology, which, again, is in keeping with Werewolf not copping to Mage's postmodern view of fusing magic and technology into the same thing, ever.

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    What? Really what page that sounds nuts?

    Also what’s the Varich setup?
    Page 66-67 under their opinion on mages. They don't believe in anything but sleeper technology.


    Ok the Varich by the houses book supposedly have oaths that bind certain Inanimae to their service. This is completely at odds with any statement in the Inanimae book.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    In the Glasswalker Tribebook they say Mages don't exist. Opinions can be wrong!

    I'm more confused about the Varich setup with Inanimae.
    What? Really what page that sounds nuts?

    Also what’s the Varich setup?

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  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

    Which makes sense but in like book of houses 2 for instance they list both Nymphs and Inanimae in the opinions section.

    In the Glasswalker Tribebook they say Mages don't exist. Opinions can be wrong!

    I'm more confused about the Varich setup with Inanimae.

    Leave a comment:


  • Eldagusto
    replied
    After reading the Inanimae section I more and more feel like maybe they intended the Nymphs to be the Inanimae, and hell look at the list of the types of Nymphs in mythology. I think they only didn't do this because Nymphs are limited to normally female, but if you ignore this they have a natural organization of Elemental spirits that essentially would fit well as Inanimae Phyla. I feel it would be beneficial to tap this somehow. Maybe I'll homebrew the various Nymph Phyla.

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

    Curious. Is it Roman or Renaissance?
    They were Renaissance. Female Satyrs are always post Classical.

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  • Astromancer
    replied
    Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
    I've always assumed that the Inanimae were retroactively what the mentions of nymphs were referring to.
    Both the Inanimae book and some other sources I only half remember say that you are right, at least about some Nymphs. Others seem to be power spirits allied to but independent of the Dreaming. You decide for a given Nymph.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

    But there were roman era statues depicting female satyrs and their kids I'll find the pic after work.
    Curious. Is it Roman or Renaissance?

    Leave a comment:

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