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Reincarnations and Oaths

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  • #16
    Originally posted by zenten View Post
    Another way to put it, you're describing the commoners as serfs, while I'm saying they were free commoners.
    After a fashion. To the Arcadian Sidhe, ALL commoners (and Freeholds) would be incapable of being truly free from noble rule. It would not even occur to them. However, as you allude to, commoner Changelings are now more mortal than fae and so are not "married to the land" anymore. They have married themselves to the Iron in the blood of mortal lives, hence they are no longer linked to the cycles like the Arcadian fae would be.

    As a Storyteller, I would only hold commoners to old oaths if something "stirred up" a reminder. Like an ancient chimera, Inanimae or Thallain showing up with with an ancient scroll or if a memory were to surface. Something dramatic and part of a deeper plot. Not casually used to broom-handle players.

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    • #17
      Just because the sidhe Dream defines a certain role for other kiths does not mean that those kiths dreams were defined that way. The sidhe were the last kiths to arrive, and they weren't the only "people" among the fae.

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      • #18
        True. The Autumn fae have detached themselves from an ancient dance of seasons and old covenants. This is how the two houses have been able to coexist. Its all part of the process of becoming more material than spirit. But as oaths are by-definition ephemeral, they are outside of redefinition by circumstance. Just because a promise is forgotten does not mean it no longer exists. It is only waiting to be remembered.

        This is part of the bitter-sweetness of fairy tales. Promises will always burn, given time.

        Note: This is probably too much philosophy for a game. But it is how I think. I am descended from oath-breakers, and I abhor their duplicity. Personally I lead with compassion and patience, but I keep my promises even when they bring me difficulty.
        Last edited by MythAdvocate; 06-26-2017, 09:56 AM.

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        • #19
          My take on the matter is simply, it depends on the Oath and the story.

          But in the case of the Sidhe I do agree that it is important to note that the Arcadian Sidhe have never been reincarnated and so are still continuing their previous lives from before the shattering and thus Oaths given to them are still in effect. But my general ruling is that even in such a case Oath can only be called for a reincarnated Fae if the Sidhe in question truly knows who the reincarnated changeling was when giving the Oath and he reminds the commoner of his pacts owed. So either the commoner at that point agrees to the Oath or becomes an oathbreaker. Same goes for prodigals who reincarnate like the Garou but in general I think it is more common that the Sidhe draw upon Prodigal Oaths that the Garou, for example, have given as a tribe or caern instead of personal Oaths. In case of longlived prodigals like the Kindred or some Mages the personal Oaths they have given still hold them as usual since both they and the Sidhe in question are still in the same life.

          Generally speaking though if the story benefits from old Oaths resurfacing then they do if not then not. YMMV of course.
          Last edited by Possessed; 06-26-2017, 10:05 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post
            Just because a promise is forgotten does not mean it no longer exists. It is only waiting to be remembered.
            I think this sentence is the perfect summarisation of the whole issue.

            Like said the Oath is dormant untill the still living party of the Oath reminds the reincarnated one of his past ties.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Possessed View Post
              I think this sentence is the perfect summarisation of the whole issue.

              Like said the Oath is dormant untill the still living party of the Oath reminds the reincarnated one of his past ties.

              Exactly my point. Thank you.

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              • #22
                somewhat related, but joinung a house... would those oaths hold? some friends and i have been debating. If not wouldnt Scathach and Liam all but die out over the years?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sinister Spider View Post
                  Hello! A newbie player on our game raised a question none of us knew how to answer. Do changelings' Oaths persist through different lives? Could a noble demand the loyalty of a kithain whose past life swore fealty to him (or maybe even a past life of said noble)? Would a couple still be bound by True Hearts after one or both died and reincarnated?

                  Thanks in advance!
                  Book of Freeholds, assuming the section doesn't get cut, briefly touches on oaths and reincarnation.

                  My personal thought on the matter is that most oaths sworn since the adoption of the Changeling Way don't persist between lives. Each life the fae leads is a new, unique changeling. The oath only applies to the individual who swears it, and while the fae half of the individual persists, the unique person who swore the oath ceases to be when she dies. This isn't to say oaths can't be crafted that persist between lifetimes, but I'd imagine they wouldn't be entered into lightly.

                  For oaths sworn before the Shattering, I'd treat them as plot devices. If a story needs an ancient oath to persist, then it does. If it doesn't serve the needs of a story, I wouldn't bother with it. It's pretty easy to justify since the fae never in their wildest dreams imagined that they'd end up forced to adopt something like the Changeling Way to survive. Oaths from that time wouldn't have taken reincarnation into account, so it'd be up to luck and a quirk of the oath's wording whether or not it persists through the cycle of reincarnation. If the oath is central to the fae's being (and thus have an impact on the story), such as a sidhe's house membership, it's probably is still in effect. If it was tangential to her (and never going to come up in a story), the oath probably lost its power when the fae in question joined herself with humanity.

                  Now, all that being said, I could see some fun story potential for an oath that was absolutely vital being lost when a fae undertook the Changeling Way. You could do some games around trying to figure out why things are all wrong, rediscovering the oath, and attempting to reestablish it.
                  Last edited by PookaKnight; 06-27-2017, 08:44 AM.


                  Charlie Cantrell
                  Onyx Path Freelancer
                  Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                  • #24
                    Once upon a time there was a book called Kithbook: Trolls...
                    And in spite of people of the time moaning and complaining about how much they disliked it, there was a flaw somewhere in there, it's been a while and i no longer remember exacthe where "there" is, that gave the character an Oath from a previous life that she didn't remember, so there was a high probability of breaking it...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                      Book of Freeholds, assuming the section doesn't get cut, briefly touches on oaths and reincarnation.

                      My personal thought on the matter is that most oaths sworn since the adoption of the Changeling Way don't persist between lives. Each life the fae leads is a new, unique changeling. The oath only applies to the individual who swears it, and while the fae half of the individual persists, the unique person who swore the oath ceases to be when she dies. This isn't to say oaths can't be crafted that persist between lifetimes, but I'd imagine they wouldn't be entered into lightly.

                      For oaths sworn before the Shattering, I'd treat them as plot devices. If a story needs an ancient oath to persist, then it does. If it doesn't serve the needs of a story, I wouldn't bother with it. It's pretty easy to justify since the fae never in their wildest dreams imagined that they'd end up forced to adopt something like the Changeling Way to survive. Oaths from that time wouldn't have taken reincarnation into account, so it'd be up to luck and a quirk of the oath's wording whether or not it persists through the cycle of reincarnation. If the oath is central to the fae's being (and thus have an impact on the story), such as a sidhe's house membership, it's probably is still in effect. If it was tangential to her (and never going to come up in a story), the oath probably lost its power when the fae in question joined herself with humanity.

                      Now, all that being said, I could see some fun story potential for an oath that was absolutely vital being lost when a fae undertook the Changeling Way. You could do some games around trying to figure out why things are all wrong, rediscovering the oath, and attempting to reestablish it.
                      hey! i know we discussed this the other day and id love to open it to a larger discussion if your okay with this!) but oaths to houses are the things that make me question the validity of this? if an oath to your house didnt survive between incarnations how could Liam and Scathan maintain any sort of presence or structure? Again i know we discussed this and came to conclusions just curious as to others thoughts on the matter!

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                      • #26
                        My assumption is the oath applies as long as you are aware of your kithain nature. Getting sained should turn up any oaths (baring some story based reason one is hidden). It's also the kind of thing that you should be able to remember usually, even if you don't remember why you swore the oath in the first place.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Luisarmander View Post
                          Once upon a time there was a book called Kithbook: Trolls...
                          And in spite of people of the time moaning and complaining about how much they disliked it, there was a flaw somewhere in there, it's been a while and i no longer remember exacthe where "there" is, that gave the character an Oath from a previous life that she didn't remember, so there was a high probability of breaking it...
                          Yeah, I did have vague remembrance of something of this sort but couldn't remember where. So thanks, mate.
                          The flaw can be found on p.65 of Kithbook: Trolls and is called Arcadian/Ancient Oath (2-5 point flaw). The Idea there is that you are bound by an Oath obscured by the Mists.

                          But again the point remains that such Ancient Oaths coming to fore is a matter of story first and foremost.

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                          • #28
                            People keep bringing the Arcadian Sidhe oaths. I think it could be argued the reason none of the commoners nowadays are oathbreakers is because the Sidhe themselves broke their oath when they decided to flee to Arcadia and leave the commoners to their own luck when they had sworn to protect them.

                            Originally posted by zenten View Post
                            My assumption is the oath applies as long as you are aware of your kithain nature. Getting sained should turn up any oaths (baring some story based reason one is hidden). It's also the kind of thing that you should be able to remember usually, even if you don't remember why you swore the oath in the first place.
                            Yes, I think that it would make sense that saining revealed what oaths a changeling swore on his past lives.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CameraObscura83 View Post
                              hey! i know we discussed this the other day and id love to open it to a larger discussion if your okay with this!) but oaths to houses are the things that make me question the validity of this? if an oath to your house didnt survive between incarnations how could Liam and Scathan maintain any sort of presence or structure? Again i know we discussed this and came to conclusions just curious as to others thoughts on the matter!
                              Um, the example I gave was about sidhe oaths to houses persisting. House membership is usually one of those things that's central to a character and has a big impact on the story.

                              Likewise, as Possessed says, the Ancient Oaths flaw is also something that's going to come up in a story. In fact, by taking the flaw, you're essentially telling the ST, "hey, this is something I want to be a plot point."

                              I'm not sure about oaths laying harmlessly dormant until a changeling remembers them. I like the idea of a changeling returning to some task, lifetime after lifetime without any conscious thought as to why, all in the pursuit of some oath sworn centuries before that she can't remember. I also like the idea that there are these oaths that serve as pillars to support the world, gradually crumbling as the Kithain break them because they don't even remember they exist.


                              Charlie Cantrell
                              Onyx Path Freelancer
                              Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                              • #30
                                Oh, I don't mean until they remember them. I mean until their Chrysalis.

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