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Celestines, Incarnae and the Fae.

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  • Celestines, Incarnae and the Fae.

    A great many of themighty spirit beings mentioned in Mage and Werewolf are regularly linked with the fae in those books. However, they are all but nonexistant in Changeling publications.

    With the coming of CtD 20, and the FAR more playable Nunnehi and Menehune, a more comprehensive look at these "Umbrood" is in order.

    Thoughts?

  • #2
    I don't like mixing Umbral stuff with Changeling myself.

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    • #3
      Well, the Umbra is a different level of Reality from the Dreaming. The spirits of the Umbra do understand the nature of Changelings though, and they approve of them because Changelings are doing their job right while Fera tend to be too filled with Rage to do their job right. In general, however, the spirits of the Umbra will not bother the Kinain. The Nunnehi, Menehune, Hsien, etc are another story all together and will likely be treated with kindness by the spirits of the Umbra because they are relatively peaceful creatures (at least in the eyes of the spirits of the Umbra) because they lack Rage.

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      • #4
        I very much agree, as I've said before I think the Deep Umbra and Deep Dreaming are the same place must different perspectives.

        We need more on Menehune, Nunnehi and Hsien's perspective both on the Dreaming but also on the spirits they deal with's impressions.

        @Aya Tari
        From my understanding the spirits seem to be pretty chill with the Fera's work, because if the world isn't Apocalypsed yet someones doing something right, and Rage is apart of the Fera and their Job. Conversely Changelings jobs are essentially to exist... so yeah they are doing that, there's like ten times more of them then say werewolves and they have a more lax jobs and less genocidal enemies and arguably greater centralization.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by zenten View Post
          I don't like mixing Umbral stuff with Changeling myself.
          Normally, I agree. But if you have Nunnehi and/Menehune in the troupe, the game will involve the Umbra and spirits.

          A simple build system, similar to chimera creation would work. As would some basic stats for animal spirits, elementals and other sorts Changelings might run into.

          More powerful spirits, like Totems and others need attention. Several have obvious connections to the fae. Such as: American Dream, Bacchus, Coyote, Danu, Fox, Owl, Raven, Stag and Unicorn among others.
          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-01-2017, 09:56 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Aya Tari View Post
            Well, the Umbra is a different level of Reality from the Dreaming. The spirits of the Umbra do understand the nature of Changelings though, and they approve of them because Changelings are doing their job right while Fera tend to be too filled with Rage to do their job right. In general, however, the spirits of the Umbra will not bother the Kinain. The Nunnehi, Menehune, Hsien, etc are another story all together and will likely be treated with kindness by the spirits of the Umbra because they are relatively peaceful creatures (at least in the eyes of the spirits of the Umbra) because they lack Rage.
            Nunnehi and Menehune can step sideways into the Umbra, have spirit guides and totems. They will encounter friendly and unfriendly spirits.

            According to the Fera, the Wyrm is demented because of the Weavers Banal web. Strikes me that there is some powerful story potential there.
            Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-02-2017, 08:57 AM.

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            • #7
              Nunnehi and Nuwisha are not only likely allies, but sound like a great chronicle. Neither have Rage, and would likely have many overlapping allies.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post
                Nunnehi and Nuwisha are not only likely allies, but sound like a great chronicle. Neither have Rage, and would likely have many overlapping allies.
                Nuwisha have a Gift to get Rage, though, so all is not smiles and sunshine. They're also likely to be a bit more vicious than most kithain are comfortable, seeing as how they have to keep trying to beat lessons through Garou skulls and all. It tends to starkly color one's world view.

                Interestingly, though, they'd get on about as well with the hsien, I think, if one followed Zhongkui (incorrectly Romanized as Chung Kuel over the correct Wade-Giles form Chung-kuei, because for some reason people though that tapping into the 1e Deities and Demigods book for AD&D, errors, fabrications and all, was a good place for WoD material).

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                • #9
                  The gurahl straight up say they often feel they have more in common with the fae than with other Fera. I have found this to often be true within my own games

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                  • #10
                    In a world where the two exist it's more than bizarre that the vast place that it's the Dream Zone, where not only the dreams of individuals, but also ALL concepts, fantasies, myths, the very essence of nightmares, and all things related to dream can be found, that extends trough all the Umbra...won't have any bussiness with the Dreaming, and vice versa.

                    Then again, this happens just for the same reason as the inconsistencies between Werewolf and Mage Umbra. Old books tried to be crossover friendly, and portrayed the Dreaming and the Dream as one place perceived by different perspectives. That didn't last, and asking that now would be like asking for a relation between the Wyrm, Oblivion and Entropy. Between the Abys, the Abys and the other Abys. Between Stasis, Banality and the Weaver. This last one I particularly loathe, as (when carelessly done, like, say, in the official material of¨ the Nunnehi) fills Changeling with Werewolf assumptions, like: "Urbane it's more Banal than the wyld forest. AKA: Man BAD, Tree GOOD" which should not be the case, never, ever.

                    But, yeah, if you're going to have players stepping sideways you shouldn't have to read other publications. A Changeling book or section about the Umbra wouldn't be bad...
                    Last edited by Aleph; 07-02-2017, 07:40 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Oh yeah virgin idyllic wilderness should never have any sort of connection to pure glamour then the slums of s a city.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        If you don't want to tear apart the strong relation between the fae and the dreams of humans, transforming them in naturae, then it would be much appreciated.

                        Werewolf may be played without humans being too important, but Changeling looses a lot of it's glamour if you don't have to fight to make humans dream and fantasise, instead retiring to your not-Caern to fight against the Wyrm/Weaver Banality of humans that wants to contaminate it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                          If you don't want to tear apart the strong relation between the fae and the dreams of humans, transforming them in naturae, then it would be much appreciated.

                          Werewolf may be played without humans being too important, but Changeling looses a lot of it's glamour if you don't have to fight to make humans dream and fantasise, instead retiring to your not-Caern to fight against the Wyrm/Weaver Banality of humans that wants to contaminate it.
                          As stated in the initial, and subsequent posts the Nunnehi and Menehune are mentioned. And games that include them will go into the Umbra.

                          Also- Many totems have connections with the Western fae, like Stag. So why not have a look at these?
                          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-03-2017, 08:25 PM.

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                          • #14
                            CtD and WtA are natural crossovers, as the Changelings and the Fera have a number of common concerns and common enemies, especially when it comes to the Nunnehi and the Fera. While people might not like the conflicts of Urban versus Rural or Man versus Nature, it is well established in oWoD that humanity causes many problems in the world because of their destruction of the natural world and because of their willingness to prey on their own kind.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Urabyfirst View Post
                              The gurahl straight up say they often feel they have more in common with the fae than with other Fera. I have found this to often be true within my own games
                              Except that this statement flat out doesn't make sense on a number of levels, and could be taken to be in-character hyperbole. Gurahl are still Ragebeasts, even if they're less likely to frenzy and eat you.

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