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Changeling the Dreaming without the other settings

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  • #16
    Wow, were insults really called for here? I just think there's enough awesome stuff in Changeling to last a lifetime of gaming.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by zenten View Post
      Wow, were insults really called for here? I just think there's enough awesome stuff in Changeling to last a lifetime of gaming.
      Wasn't an insult. More of statement of the obvious in an ironic manner. I even included an acknowledgement of validity of a differing opinion within my last sentence.

      If you took my statement as an insult I do apologize.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Possessed View Post

        How Banal can CtD players be if they wish to limit possibilities and eliminate diversion in the world by removing whole species of beings?

        But each to his/her own I guess.
        The other game worlds forget Changeling regularly. In fact most of the other lines seem to hate CtD. I was just discussing options for storytellers that dont have all of the books.

        This sort of thing is what made the cWOD a hard sell. And it is still the problem today. These games need to have standalone AND troupe play as possibilities.

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        • #19
          Diversity it's overrated. To be Glamorous the elements composing the diversity need to have meaning, otherwise it's as bland as those preprocessed "balanced foods" that have elements of every food but have a dry and homogeneous taste.

          So, since this thread isn't and never was about why crossovering it's evil, but about how to make it less evil. We could think about the meaning, the narrative flavor, that these elements may apport to a Changeling story.

          The basic setting of Changeling it's to stave off Banality and create Glamour. Changelings try to return glamour to the lives of people, to make them dream and create, to return a little of the lost dreamy youth that in adults it's slowly replaced with being jaded, realistic, and practical.

          Changelings also have to face nightmares and some of the crazines of the Dreaming (while office buildings are the main antagonist, they aren't the only one ).

          Changeling has the potential to be almost as gonzo as Mage, but it's core themes are much more intimist than those of Mage, or any other game for what matters. Faes really have interact with humanity at a very intimate level to survive.

          Or I am wrong? If I'm not wrong, I think it may be worthy to think about how other supernaturals figure in all of this:

          Yes, you could try to inspire a Toreador to create art...but leaving this at that doesn't really adress how a Toreador it's different from any human. You could go to a human artist and inspire her with much less risk to your blood...

          Sure, a Ventrue may try to build an office where the freehold it's, but so can any human corporation.

          How can we bring the themes of vampire to the fae's table?. How can we bring the themes of the other games?

          Ideas:

          As antagonist: Perhaps the Toreador has decided to ghoul some humans that were interesting to PC faes. Perhaps by ghouling an interesting mortal the Toreador it's, unknowingly, breaking a story of true love that a fae was trying to make happen to create Glamour. This involves blood bond and the predatory nature of vampires in a way that can't be ignored or trully replicated with purely human elements, I think.

          As ally: This one it's a bit trickier, as vampires tend to be very Banal. What if a vampire was known to the fae in a past live. Perhaps the Toreador was an artist with an incredible potential, or something like that. This potential has been lost to the ages, of ourse, but maybe a character can try to lit it back.

          With Mage the core of the average game it's about hope against all the odds, freedom vs security, faith.

          As ally: Instead of inspiring a Mage to create a work of art, a fae could inspire a mage to do a Great Work. Mages are people who thrive to change their surroundings, they are here to shape reality and they have the great willpower to do it. An inteligent fae could use this by providing the vision they need.
          Traditionalist mages are very Glamorous, their Magick it's described in all Changeling books as something of Glamour. They're natural alies to faes in a fight against conformism. Technocrats would never do this, knowingly.

          As antagonists:
          While mages of Mage don't have a largue story of antagonizing the fae (the contrary it's usually true), in real life myths it happened.
          As an example: the myth that depicts the fall of the Tuatha De Danann at the hands of the ancestors of the Irish people, the Millesians, had the Millesian poet Amergin stop a magical storm conjured by the Tuatha. Amergin played a pivotal role in the defeat of the mythical race ensuring the dominance of "humanity" over the island.
          In real life myth wizards often had the means to undo the shenanigans of the fae or were able to turn the arcane rules of the faes against them.

          In WoD some mages have the means to recognize faes as what they really are, and maybe they want to eradicate them based on superstitions or fact that depict fae as dangerous (if the PC are of the Unseelie, maybe the mage it's right), or could want to hunt or control the PC.
          Last edited by Aleph; 07-09-2017, 02:50 PM.

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          • #20
            Vampires being inherently Banal has thankfully been removed in C20. So you can now do stories like fighting over a Dreamer, in a way where Kithain (or Vampire from the other end) society cannot help resolve.

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            • #21
              The Ravnos make for awesome villains to CtD thanks to their discipline imo.

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              • #22
                The primary issue with crossovers was the relative power level (the Dreaming is its own thing, but it connects to every level of the Unbra, so there are no real conflicts). I honestly prefer CtD to MtAs, as there is less power gaming, and because CtD is much easier to crossover than MtAs.

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                • #23
                  As someone who does like my worlds of darkness (old and new) seperated into nice thematic and cosmological bubbles I really like dreaming being it's own thing.

                  I've always wanted to see something with dreaming mages as Enchanters. As in the one's who found their innate connection to the dreaming to enchant themselves perpetually. After all humanity shapes the dreaming unconsciously so one who can do it consciously would basically be... well a wizard. This allows them to call on the dreaming and bring back magic in their own ways. I've often considered whether to use arts and realms for them or whether to steal the old faith powers from dark ages mage, nerfed by banality. It even fits thematically as the coming of Winter would snuff out the magic in humanity so they have every reason to help the fey... or the fomorians who may promise to let them preserve their power in the coming age
                  Last edited by Darkfoxdev; 07-09-2017, 11:40 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
                    As someone who does like my worlds of darkness (old and new) seperated into nice thematic and cosmological bubbles I really like dreaming being it's own thing.

                    I've always wanted to see something with dreaming mages as Enchanters. As in the one's who found their innate connection to the dreaming to enchant themselves perpetually. After all humanity shapes the dreaming unconsciously so one who can do it consciously would basically be... well a wizard. This allows them to call on the dreaming and bring back magic in their own ways. I've often considered whether to use arts and realms for them or whether to steal the old faith powers from dark ages mage, nerfed by banality. It even fits thematically as the coming of Winter would snuff out the magic in humanity so they have every reason to help the fey... or the fomorians who may promise to let them preserve their power in the coming age

                    THIS is the sort of thing I was hoping to discuss. And I LOVE the concept of the Enchanter as a kind of Dream-tapping magician. A Hedge Magic society from the old Sorcerer book comes to mind:

                    Zolondrodere: The Dreamers of the Silver Portal
                    A recent revival of an ancient group, the Dreamers of the Silver Star are oneiromancers – magicians whose powers lie in dreams and the Dreaming. This fellowship of seven sorcerers base their magics on the Covenent of the Silver Portal, an 18th century English translation of a 14th century Byzantium Greek manuscript which in turn was translated from a 5th century Persian scroll that may in fact be translated from another ancient work. This single tome purports to reveal the secrets of oneiromancy and the hidden terrain of the dream worlds – the Dream Realms called Maya, from which, it is said, all magics come.
                    The Dreamers of the Silver Portal gather together in dreamform and traverse the byways of the Dreaming, in search of the fabled City of Syrannon – a city that, if found, grants the dreamer life eternal. Many dreamers have gone mad on such a quest, discovering instead otherworldly horrors and the nightmares of dying gods. Some few have returned from their slumber enriched by savage insights and possessed on unearthly gifts.
                    Who can question the nature of dreams?
                    Paths: Conveyance, Fascination, Healing, Oneiromancy (required).

                    If you want to avoid using Hedge Magic paths, I could see just granting these guys Arts and Realms. Or perhaps *just* the Art of Oneiromancy. Heck, a Mortal with Kenning and Gremayre has the potential to be potent dreamer.

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                    • #25
                      not a bad idea, and yeah hedge magic is fairly good though it may require tweaking to specifically work with chimera and the dreaming, and using bunks is the kind of thing I love seeing in a magic system so letting the paths work more like realms is not something i'd be averse to.

                      perhaps worth it to bring back 1e sorcerer's emphemera reskinned and adjusted for the dreaming and perhaps an astral projection power for dream travel (would they have chimera stats in that form?)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Darkfoxdev View Post
                        not a bad idea, and yeah hedge magic is fairly good though it may require tweaking to specifically work with chimera and the dreaming, and using bunks is the kind of thing I love seeing in a magic system so letting the paths work more like realms is not something i'd be averse to.

                        perhaps worth it to bring back 1e sorcerer's emphemera reskinned and adjusted for the dreaming and perhaps an astral projection power for dream travel (would they have chimera stats in that form?)
                        Ephemera could easily be reskinned for the Dreaming. Use Kenning and Gremayre for the abilities and deal with Chimera and Fae instead of wraiths and such, and there you go.

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                        • #27
                          I will acknowledge that CtD is often forgotten about in crossover discussions elsewhere. That said, I have had a crossover game involving mostly cWoD Mages, nWoD Vampires, nWoD Werewolves, and changelings (a little bit) based on CtD. We had very few/no problems. There was also a homebrewed "Highlander" style Immortal character (with enemies of course). I will note that the mechanics were converted to nWoD (first edition, before it got renamed CofD)

                          I realize that the conventional attitude on these forums and reddit is that crossovers are terrible for cWoD, but I have never had a problem with it in several years of playing with one ST. My newest ST has stated that he has never had problems with it either, and my recollection is that he ran a CtD game primarily with some Mage PCs (his crossover was entirely cWoD).

                          It's hard to say who're more powerful. I guess Mages at the fourth dot in spheres probably beat out Changelings with their fourth dot in an Art (even if powerful). The fifth dot for Mage spheres is also insanely powerful, but so are the fifth dots for Changelings. Yes, Mages have way more flexibility. But Changelings, if they can overcome banality (yes, a potentially huge hurdle), don't have the same blink-you-out-of-existence risk of paradox that Mages have when working those higher dot effects.

                          There is also a huge constraint in Mage: the Ascension games that is hard to deal with in crossover, which is the Technocracy. Even if I don't blink myself out of existence or (with the less disastrous result) actually kill myself with paradox, the Techoncracy is going to be up my ass. Managing that in a way that does not penalize the Changelings in the group could be done but is not super easy.

                          I think I recall somewhere in one of the Changeling books (maybe even the 2nd edition core rulebook?) some examples of doing Mages with Changeling powers (or Changeling-like ones) instead of using their rules, if desired.

                          As far as the banality ratings for Mage belief systems (e.g., the true mystics such as the Verbena in contrast with true believers such as the Celestial Chorus), I think those are a generally good guideline. But as mentioned previously, Avatars are important. A very dynamic/Questing essence Technocrat should be more banal than a similarly dynamic Tradition mage, so perhaps that Technocrat gets to be a 7 or maybe a 6 (maybe).

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                          • #28
                            Changelings also get a major power bump in C20 (well, sort of, they're also harder to min-max now, but most STs wouldn't want that sort of thing at the table). When I said I think they're probably fine mixed with Mages now I meant with C20.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by zenten View Post
                              Changelings also get a major power bump in C20 (well, sort of, they're also harder to min-max now, but most STs wouldn't want that sort of thing at the table). When I said I think they're probably fine mixed with Mages now I meant with C20.
                              Very happy to hear this. Changelings were such glass jaws in previous editions. A fae magician should be powerful.

                              I guess I am hoping for a CtD version of Ascensions Right Hand. An assortment of options for n fae companions and foes. Enchanters, Chimera, Fae Animals etc.

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                              • #30
                                I've never had a problem mixing other games into my Changeling ones, though I've only done it as NPCs. I don't think that a chronicle with mixed PCs would work well because of the big issue with non-Kithain perceiving and interacting with chimerical reality. With NPCs I can fudge a little, make them enchanted, etc., and have never had an issue.




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