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Dross and Richies - Money in the Dreaming

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  • #16
    I second the 'fairy gold' thing. My suggestion is that certain items carry mystical weight that, individually, might constitute less than a point of dross, but that taken collectively they add up. So maybe every $100 or 100 pieces of magic candy can be swapped for a point of dross. The items might vary wildly, but let's say they're created by the Dreaming from little whiffs of creativity and investment. The more rare it is, the more its worth. So a child's bottlecap (part of a collection of dozens) is equivalent to $1 or 1/100 of a point of dross. A child's milk tooth left under a pillow might be worth $10 or 1/10.

    Creative STs might award these through play like you would money in D&D. Players can hoard them, spend them, trade them for dross, or destroy them for immediate Glamour.

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    • #17
      I understand the desire for glamorous treasures but have one problem with the concept of money in fae society: The advantages of money involve the problems of money, like not having it.

      As an adult I can attest that having to work hard (regardless of desires or where your dreams push you) for the smallest of boons or be misserable it's Banality itself: It's the source. That's why people chain themselves to paperwork.

      Gameplay wise it's akin to the concept of "farming", when you exploit a series of actions to get more money to buy more items, that's usually one of the most booring parts of videogames that involve money (well, at least in my experience )

      Concept wise, while beggars have an important role in many stories, it usually doesn't involve being unable to get things. Money, or presumable lack of it, never prevented beggar mages from unleashing their awesome powers, nor wise/mysterious beggars from having that rare item that a beggar shouldn't have.
      Concept wise, money dreams, like the American Dream, doesn't involve beggars staying that way for long, but yet they have a place in stories everywhere and shouldn't be excluded because the ST decided that not having fae gold will seriously hamper your Glamour supply.

      Thus, have money, but not make the fae society depend or move on it...As a suggestion, appart from money and favors, stories could be currency too, the very narrative flow that led you to that tavern may pay the beer you need, since Changelings are the stuff of dreams, you're unlikely to have nothing to tell. In general, I wouldn't derail the adventure to get income, if it's part of the story and PC want to engage actively on getting it, then it's welcomed, but I would make it a very ephemeral part of fae society.
      Last edited by Aleph; 09-12-2017, 10:50 AM.

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      • #18
        1 Dross = 1 Glamour point

        Any further monetary value placed upon a piece of dross is purely subjective and is likely local to a particular freehold or duchy/barony/kingdom/etc


        Maggie Carroll
        Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
        Working On: Book of Freeholds
        Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
          Wondered A LOT on this issue!

          Their has to be SOME motivation to seek a dragons hoard, or long lost treasure!
          Perhaps raw materials? Your average changeling may not have much use for the shiny stuff, but perhaps changeling artificers need the specific materials in a dragon's hoard? I don't have any C20 stuff yet so I don't know the new Treasure creation rules, but a dragon probably only collects things for its hoard that had dream stuff in it, and don't forget that dream stuff tends to collect in near by entities from whatever first has some so much hoard may well have also absorbed some from the dragon. Dream stuff IS valuable to changelings and it makes the risk more than worthwhile. The Crystal Circle will probably more than make it worth your while, either in mundane or magical terms, in exchange for turning over a dragon's treasure.

          Edit: Just think of what favors the Crystal Circle can do for you using the Naming Art alone.
          Last edited by Mercurial; 09-13-2017, 01:59 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Aleph View Post
            Concept wise, while beggars have an important role in many stories, it usually doesn't involve being unable to get things. Money, or presumable lack of it, never prevented beggar mages from unleashing their awesome powers, nor wise/mysterious beggars from having that rare item that a beggar shouldn't have.
            Concept wise, money dreams, like the American Dream, doesn't involve beggars staying that way for long, but yet they have a place in stories everywhere and shouldn't be excluded because the ST decided that not having fae gold will seriously hamper your Glamour supply..
            This makes me think of "that guy" who we all know. The one who doesn't work, is perpetually broke and YET always has cigarettes, always has a date, and never seems to age. Usually these guys die abruptly of weird problems they never knew about, but until then...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post

              This makes me think of "that guy" who we all know. The one who doesn't work, is perpetually broke and YET always has cigarettes, always has a date, and never seems to age. Usually these guys die abruptly of weird problems they never knew about, but until then...
              I think your social group is much more interesting than mine

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              • #22
                Good point. I was a weirdness magnet BEFORE the internet. Now...

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Maggie C View Post
                  1 Dross = 1 Glamour point

                  Any further monetary value placed upon a piece of dross is purely subjective and is likely local to a particular freehold or duchy/barony/kingdom/etc

                  That's how I've always run it as well.

                  One of the things that I've liked about the Storyteller system of games is that there wasn't a price list. In so many other RPGs you get a specific amount of money, and then have to spend that money on equipment down to the dollar/credit/gp. It becomes more of an accounting RPG than true role-playing. With the ST system you have a 1-5 rating for Resources, and you can just go buy or do anything that would fit within that level of wealth. No counting each dollar! If you have a Resources 1 you're not likely going to be dining at a fancy steak house at all. At Resources 2 you might go a couple of times per year. Resources 3 you might do it every month or two. Never once do you have to look at your character sheet to check your money listing and see whether or not you have the $50 to spend on dinner.

                  I look at dross in very much the same way. Dross is distilled Glamour. Magic! It's not as simple as "Well, buying that goblin parchment will cost you 1 dross". Making it that basic really makes dross kind of banal. There is the game mechanic of 1 Dross = 1 Glamour, but beyond that an item with dross is worth as much or as little as the buyer and seller feel that it is. It's very much (as has been stated) a barter system. Even though dross is seen as a monetary system, I have a hard time seeing kithain being so frivolous about it as we might be with a dollar bill. Why does that locket have dross? Because it was created especially for that little girl by her dying grandfather. Because it was part of Marie Antoinette's jewelry. Because....it was something important and special. Even if they trade it for favors or objects, a changeling will never be able to forget what caused it to be infused with Glamour in the first place.




                  Visit my freehold for Changeling links, settings, art, and other goodies.
                  The Shepherd's Freehold

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                  • #24
                    Actually, I like the idea to count the raw Dreamstuff as "chimerical money" and simply an extension of character's Resources/Chimera, while leaving the exchange of Dross for favours, where Dross can be used as any other point of Glamour with appropriate adjustment for "consumption procedure".

                    Although, when Dross has form of a famous work of Art, I'm undecided as to what happens to the the work itself? Is it sucked dry of Glamour forever? Does it lost its charm and allure? It would be real depressing if so. Or maybe it would refill within a decade or two, like those natural sources of Dross, suggested in the Enchanted? Or it works once for every owner?
                    Last edited by Firkraag; 09-16-2017, 01:04 PM.


                    "Okay, damn, ow. I just gotta… why the heck do all games about faeries read like they are written by them, too?" © open_sketchbook

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                    • #25
                      If you drain the Glamour out of dross, it's destroyed.

                      And I think there's some confusion as to terminology here. Lemme see if I can clear it up.

                      "Dross" is not raw dreamstuff. It has a form and a function, whether that function was "rock on the bottom of the river" or "the itchy scale on the left side of the dragon's chest". Their dreams are inconsequential in the long run, but they were shaped by dreams and influenced by dreams. They aren't raw and formless.

                      "Currency" does not automatically equate to "money". In this regard, "currency" means "something of value desired by my social group". Distilled Glamour in a society powered, sheltered and fed by Glamour is an item of value. Sure, you could have Lord Moneybritches staking claim on a silver mine in the Dreaming somewhere and having his people haul out silver for smelting into coins at the Royal Mint and in one regard, that might make it banal, but in another regard, look at all the stories you could pull out of that plothook, from indentured miners to discovering a lost treasure to expanding the culture of an entire kingdom with its newfound wealth. One of those coins would be infused with a tiny piece of all of that glorious dreaming. That's its intrinsic worth, that single point of Glamour frozen in smelted chimerical silver.

                      Dross as currency isn't dross is money. The value changelings place on it doesn't come from the system of trade and exchange they've built. They built the system of trade and exchange they have *because* dross has value. Changelings look at dross as money in the same way mages look at Tass as money. They don't. They're things of value, spent carefully because of their value.
                      Last edited by Maggie C; 09-15-2017, 10:45 AM.


                      Maggie Carroll
                      Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
                      Working On: Book of Freeholds
                      Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Maggie C View Post
                        If you drain the Glamour out of dross, it's destroyed.
                        So, if I've got the original manuscript of "Midsummer's Night Dream", which is huge source of Dross, to get that Dross I would need to destroy a precious work of art?

                        No amount of Dross costs as much as the artwork, that produced it! Dross is one-time. Art inspires us again and again and again.

                        If I were Storyteller, and one of my players said: "Welp, I need my fix of Glamour. Sorry, um, Shakespeare guy or whatever, but I'll have to burn your play to get some quick magical boost" I'd gave them Banality instead, like for for murdering fae. Maybe, even permanent.


                        "Okay, damn, ow. I just gotta… why the heck do all games about faeries read like they are written by them, too?" © open_sketchbook

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                        • #27
                          A painting isn't dross.


                          Maggie Carroll
                          Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
                          Working On: Book of Freeholds
                          Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Maggie C View Post
                            A painting isn't Dross.
                            And what makes you think that?

                            Was Dross specifically changed for C20?
                            Last edited by Firkraag; 09-15-2017, 10:51 PM.


                            "Okay, damn, ow. I just gotta… why the heck do all games about faeries read like they are written by them, too?" © open_sketchbook

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                            • #29
                              Dross is a small chimerical object that can fit in a person's hand, and is equivalent to one point of Glamour. Balefires can produce them, and they can be harvested from slain chimera or natural nodes in the Dreaming. A painting is something someone made, infused with Glamour.


                              Maggie Carroll
                              Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
                              Working On: Book of Freeholds
                              Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I'm not quite, sure what are the exact changes Dross had underwent in C20, but this is what CtD:2e has to say about it. And while I understand, that changes had to be made, there were a lot to be desired about the rules and setting consistency, I can't possibly see, what was wrong with how Dross was working originally to facilitate any changes. What you just wrote is a very minor subset of all the possible ways, how Dross can be. Could've been.

                                *Sighs* One more thing to be mildly disappointed in C20... and left ignored for the sake of my sanity.

                                Dross

                                While epiphanies are used to glean Glamour from mortals, there are other ways of obtaining Glamour in its many guises. The raw essence of the Dreaming sometimes gets trapped in physical form, usually through natural or magical means. This type of Glamour is known as dross. Dross is less threatening than the unbridled energy of the Dreaming. Indeed, many Kithain believe that dross should protected even more so than the Dreaming itself, because it is fragile and unique.
                                Dross can manifest in many natural variations — forest mushrooms, geodes, fern seeds, well-worn river stones. Dross is often contained in the possessions and relics of great people: John Lennon's diary, Picasso's paintbrush or palette, Abraham Lincoln's top hat, or a letter written by either Lewis Carroll or Dr. Seuss.
                                The Glamour gleaned from dross is more fleeting and temporary than that gathered from an epiphany. The power of dross is measured in points, but the fragile nature of that Glamour requires it to be used immediately once it is released. The Glamour unleashed from dross cannot replenish a changeling's own store. An object usually contains anywhere from one to five Glamour points, although some magnificent vessels hold 10 points or more.
                                In order for the Glamour trapped in dross to be released, part of the item (and in many cases all of it) must be destroyed. A changeling must tear, crush, bum, devour, rip or otherwise ruin the item permanently, unless only part of its Glamour can be released, in which case only part of the object is destroyed. Once all the dross has been released from an item, there can be no chance to repair it. Ever.
                                Many Kithain use dross as a form of currency. The Kenning Talent enables a changeling to know exactly how much Glamour is contained in an object (on a roll against difficulty 5). Many Seelie and Unseelie believe that such treasures and mementos should be protected from greedy Kithain out for a quick fix (although the Unseelie generally hold a much more liberal view of what makes something a treasure).


                                Types of Dross

                                Dross can take the form of many different things, in varying sizes and shapes. The following is a list of sample items.
                                • Dream Stones: Dream stones are beautiful natural objects. Although these items are named dream stones, the majority of them aren't stones at all — they might be anything from a small clump of moss from a rarely visited forest to an unusually formed crystal. Dream stones are distinguishable from their ordinary counterparts — the moss might be an unusual color, or the crystal might glow with a chimerical inner light. Dream stones are usually found around faerie glens and in hidden wilderness grottos. Dream stones usually contain only small amounts of Glamour, from one to three points.
                                • Mementos: Mementos are items associated with a person or an event of great inspirational significance. One of Elvis' rhine-stone-studded jumpsuits, a pen that belonged to H. P. Lovecraft, a moon rock from mankind's first lunar landing, or even John Belushi's bumblebee outfit could be mementos. Mementos can contain large amounts of Glamour, some as much as 10 points. The more rare the item and the greater the person or event connected with it, the more dross it holds.
                                • Treasures: Treasures can hold as little as one or as many as 10 points of Glamour, depending on the significance of the item and the impact it has had on creativity. The original copy of A Midsummer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare might contain more than 20 points of Glamour, while a canvas painting by a new but well-respected graffiti artist might contain only two. Most treasures are guarded zealously by the Kithain. Some treasures are made specifically to be destroyed, to release the Glamour contained within. Destroying a permanent and important treasure simply for the Glamour within earns the defiler a temporary point of Banality.
                                • Chimera: Glamour gained from destroying a chimerical beast may be used to replenish a changeling's own depleted score. However, one must consume the flesh of the beast in order to gain any benefits. Doing this repeatedly can cause side effects ranging from purgative to poisonous to Bedlam-inspiring.
                                Chimerical items may also release Glamour when destroyed. The amount of Glamour gained by consuming a beast or breaking a chimerical object is generally proportional to the power of the creature or item.
                                • Founts: Certain hidden places in the world have a direct connection to the Dreaming. These places, called founts, are highly sought after. In fact, some freeholds are built upon or near these sites, where Glamour bubbles up naturally like a spring. The amount of dross gained by ingesting the Glamour-laden "water" is determined by the Storyteller, although it is usually never more than 10 points in one draught, after which the fount must be allowed to replenish itself before it can be drawn from again. Strange side effects can arise from drinking from certain founts. Anything from hallucinations, nightmares, precognition or an attack of the giggles may result, depending on the Storyteller's discretion and the location of the fount.


                                (p. 216; C:tD 2e)
                                P.S. Good thing is that searching for this piece answered my initial question. You just don't use Dross in form of Treasure or Memento, at all, unless circumstances are very dire or particularly appropriate. It's indeed a memento, or priceless artifact of historical and cultural value. The value of the gold of Tutanchamun's mask is inconsequential to what this mask means to us. Robbing a Treasure or Memento of it's Glamour would be equal to harming it and therefore a significant crime against its sentimental or cultural value. And it would rob everyone of its value.

                                So, case closed, I guess.
                                Last edited by Firkraag; 09-16-2017, 01:22 PM.


                                "Okay, damn, ow. I just gotta… why the heck do all games about faeries read like they are written by them, too?" © open_sketchbook

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