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What Happens when a Dauntain is captured?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
    wondered a bit, ever since reading the immortal eye trilogy... what happens when a dauntain is brought in chains before the nobility.

    Ideas think they'll be dispatched as a mercy, or given a trial to determine if they can be rehabilitated or not?


    According to C20, the term 'Dauntain' is a blanket term for any of the fae who's ways are different or strange to the Kithain. The Thallain, the Hsein, the Nunnehi, the Menehuni, the Dark-Kin, all of them are listed as being Dauntain, even though they behave completely different from one another. So really, it's not a question of if a Dauntain is captured, but rather what kind of Dauntain was captured.

    With the exception of the Thallain, I think the nobles would react in a manner befitting the culture and dreams they've come to personify.

    The Arcadian Sidhe would probably react to them with cultural bias and racism, whether they intended to or not. Central Europe typically viewed tribal and eastern cultures as being ignorant savages. By contrast, the Autumn Sidhe have been living among human society for hundreds of years, and have adapted their way of thinking to suit the changing times. So they might view the Dauntain with a different light than their ancestors would have.


    Just to give a quick run down:


    Thallain = These guys predate the fae. They were created in a time when the Dreaming was pure chaos and revolved around brutal savagery and impulses. They were created by the Fomorians, while the Kithain who came later were made by the Tuatha de Danaan. Most Kithain seem to hate their guts, but the Shadow Court has been known to work with them at times.


    Dark-Kin = Fae spirits who had an adverse effect to the shattering. Instead of being cut off from the Dreaming and trapped in the Autumn World, they were cut off from the Autumn World and trapped within the Dreaming


    Nunnehi = The 'faerie' folk of Native American folk lore. They're organized into tribal societies instead of aristocratic houses, and they draw their power from something called Medicine, as opposed to Glamour.


    Mennehuni = The 'faerie' folk of Hawaii. They survived being cut off from the dreaming by bonding themselves to the spirit world, and now draw their power from nature itself, instead of human dreams.


    Hsein = The 'faerie' folk of eastern Asia. Their origins and purpose are completely different from their western counterparts. In fact, they're about as different from western fae as the Kuei-Jin are from Kindred.


    Inanimae = These faerie folk were born from the dreams of nature itself, instead of the minds of humans. So their motives are likely beyond our ability to comprehend.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 08:56 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



      According to C20, the term 'Dauntain' is a blanket term for any of the fae who's ways are different or strange to the Kithain.
      You are mixing terms, Gallain is the blanket name for other Fae types and Dauntain is rather specifically different thing. Dauntain in C20 are Kithain, or even Gallain, so horrible cursed and branded by the Dreaming to be actually toxic to Glamour.

      Before C20 some of the Dauntain were cursed others damaged and some were just aligned with the forces of Banality.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Possessed View Post

        You are mixing terms, Gallain is the blanket name for other Fae types and Dauntain is rather specifically different thing. Dauntain in C20 are Kithain, or even Gallain, so horrible cursed and branded by the Dreaming to be actually toxic to Glamour.

        Before C20 some of the Dauntain were cursed others damaged and some were just aligned with the forces of Banality.


        Ah, my mistake then.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Davesknd View Post


          To be honest: That sounds extremely boring for an ST to work with. Basically, we have creatures with the moral agency of D&D skeletons that our players can just kill on sight and never worry about again. I mean, it does have more dramatic impact if there was a way to redeem them and the Dauthain refuses, rejecting all hope and actually deciding to be evil, instead of being punished for something that might have been "done to them". Just feels weird that the only way to help victims is to put them out of our misery. Especially in a pretty whimsy game like CtD


          Going by their description, I like to imagine the Dauntain are changelings who have succumb to nihilism. They no longer believe in anything, because to them, existence is meaningless. It might also explain how they're able to reincarnate themselves. Who cares if you waste this life, or the next, or the next, or the next? As long as you've got your own personal Konami Code, then nothing matters anymore, you've got infinite retries!

          Who cares if your mortal loved ones are killed? They were going to die at some point, anyways, while you would still be walking around centuries after they've rotted to dust!

          Who cares about trying to contribute anything to society if a couple decades later, it's just going to be considered obsolete and replaced with something else?

          For immortal creatures like the fae, the world is on a constant loop. They live, they die, they live again, they die again, and the cycle keeps repeating. What's the point of even trying anymore?

          A creature who is so utterly devoid of hope and ambition would be anathema to the Dreaming and thus rejected by it.

          Their very presence in society invites death to the Dreaming and all those connected to it.
          Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-07-2018, 10:27 PM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



            Going by their description, I like to imagine the Dauntain are changelings who have succumb to nihilism. They no longer believe in anything, because to them, existence is meaningless. It might also explain how they're able to reincarnate themselves. Who cares if you waste this life, or the next, or the next, or the next? As long as you've got your own personal Konami Code, then nothing matters anymore, you've got infinite retries!

            Who cares if your mortal loved ones are killed? They were going to die at some point, anyways, while you would still be walking around centuries after they've rotted to dust!

            Who cares about trying to contribute anything to society if a couple decades later, it's just going to be considered obsolete and replaced with something else?

            For immortal creatures like the fae, the world is on a constant loop. They live, they die, they live again, they die again, and the cycle keeps repeating. What's the point of even trying anymore?

            A creature who is so utterly devoid of hope and ambition would be anathema to the Dreaming and thus rejected by it.

            Their very presence in society invites death to the Dreaming and all those connected to it.
            Explaining them doesn't make them any more interesting or appealing. So their're nihilistic and empty. Great. That would also imply that they sit around all day, do nothing and won't resist when someone comes to kill them. Basically, now Changelings are supposed to kill the clinically depressed among them.
            That doesn't sound right or fun or interesting.
            Really a waste...

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Davesknd View Post

              Explaining them doesn't make them any more interesting or appealing. So their're nihilistic and empty. Great. That would also imply that they sit around all day, do nothing and won't resist when someone comes to kill them. Basically, now Changelings are supposed to kill the clinically depressed among them.
              That doesn't sound right or fun or interesting.
              Really a waste...


              Sure, clinically depressed is one direction they could go in. But another direction for those who simply don't care anymore is to cast aside their inhibitions and act upon whatever selfish impulse they feel at the moment. As I said, they basically have infinite retries, which means if a Dauntain chose to become a serial killer, for example, then the state issued death penalty wouldn't be enough to stop them. It might kill their mortal body, sure, but after they reincarnate, you eventually hear stories about "copycat" killers popping up in the news headlines.


              Are all Dauntain psychopathic hell raisers? Probably not, it seems rather silly to think otherwise.

              But the ones who actually are require a more serious course of action than simply locking them away or killing their current host.


              EDIT: Also want to point out that Changeling, the Dreaming is NOT a whimsical game, as I have come to understand by looking at it from a deeper point of view. It is a game about the death of whimsy, as your character is gradually exposed to the cold harshness of reality and all that it entails. The inevitable loss of innocence, that's the horror that surrounds the game. And anybody who thinks that it's D&D in the modern age is missing the point completely.
              Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-10-2018, 01:33 PM.

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              • #37
                In C20 I see the Dauntain as thinking the Dreaming is corrupt and wanting to destroy it.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



                  Sure, clinically depressed is one direction they could go in. But another direction for those who simply don't care anymore is to cast aside their inhibitions and act upon whatever selfish impulse they feel at the moment. As I said, they basically have infinite retries, which means if a Dauntain chose to become a serial killer, for example, then the state issued death penalty wouldn't be enough to stop them. It might kill their mortal body, sure, but after they reincarnate, you eventually hear stories about "copycat" killers popping up in the news headlines.


                  Are all Dauntain psychopathic hell raisers? Probably not, it seems rather silly to think otherwise.

                  But the ones who actually are require a more serious course of action than simply locking them away or killing their current host.


                  EDIT: Also want to point out that Changeling, the Dreaming is NOT a whimsical game, as I have come to understand by looking at it from a deeper point of view. It is a game about the death of whimsy, as your character is gradually exposed to the cold harshness of reality and all that it entails. The inevitable loss of innocence, that's the horror that surrounds the game. And anybody who thinks that it's D&D in the modern age is missing the point completely.
                  Reincarnation as a changeling means an almost complete loss of memory until the dreamdance begins and they might be reborn on the other end of the planet, probably surrounded by other changelings. OH GOD, the humanity! That serial killer might... get someone completely different at some point after he has learned how to potty again! AHHHHH! /s

                  But at this point, after reading all of C20, I agree. Changeling the Dreaming is indeed a game about the death of whimsy. The CtD I have was holding onto it and loving every moment until it had to go. C20 is about beating it to death while whining that it's no fun anymore. Like with V20, they fucked it up for me.

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                  • #39
                    1st ed was a Childling, 2nd ed was a Wilder, C20 is a Grump.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by zenten View Post
                      1st ed was a Childling, 2nd ed was a Wilder, C20 is a Grump.
                      A very apt analysis.
                      Anyways, I'm off, to celebrate the dreamdance and walk into the autumn until winter freezes my smile. (That means that I'll be playing 1st Ed and stop commenting here. No use wasting you guys time)

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                      • #41
                        Okay, well I went back and gave the C20 version of Dauntains another look through and I think I understand where the Kithain are coming from in regards to their point of view.

                        The Dauntain are fae who have been damaged not just physically, but spiritually as well. Their very souls have been scarred as a result of some traumatic experience or forbidden taboo. Because these scars are spiritual, rather than physical, they carry over between reincarnations. You could view the Dauntain as representing legends of people who were just "born evil."

                        Yes, it's true that Changelings lose their memories upon their physical death and go off to find a new life, but these memories are not permanently lost. In fact, as soon as they enter the Far Dreaming, they start receiving glimpses of their past lives. And once they enter the Deep Dreaming, they regain their full memories. Whatever happened to make them into Dauntain in the first place, they are eventually going to remember it.


                        But being personally damaged isn't the only thing wrong with them, because Dauntain seem to hold a grudge against the Dreaming for whatever reason and seek to inflict damage upon it and anybody associated with it. I didn't realize this at the time, but one of their possible brands is actually devoted to nihilism, which we talked about earlier. Another brand causes them to spread a magical disease or poison that contaminates the Dreaming wherever they go.

                        The Dauntain have been damaged in such a fashion that they have become anathema to the Dreaming and what it stands for. It rejects their existence, even while it is forced to sustain them.


                        If you're looking for a silver lining to how the Dauntain are treated, you can always put your faith in the Iron Road, which states that death by cold iron actually purifies the fae's soul and enables them to move to a higher state of existence. So really, perma-killing the Dauntain is an act of mercy, rather than cruelty!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                          Okay, well I went back and gave the C20 version of Dauntains another look through and I think I understand where the Kithain are coming from in regards to their point of view.

                          The Dauntain are fae who have been damaged not just physically, but spiritually as well. Their very souls have been scarred as a result of some traumatic experience or forbidden taboo. Because these scars are spiritual, rather than physical, they carry over between reincarnations. You could view the Dauntain as representing legends of people who were just "born evil."

                          Yes, it's true that Changelings lose their memories upon their physical death and go off to find a new life, but these memories are not permanently lost. In fact, as soon as they enter the Far Dreaming, they start receiving glimpses of their past lives. And once they enter the Deep Dreaming, they regain their full memories. Whatever happened to make them into Dauntain in the first place, they are eventually going to remember it.


                          But being personally damaged isn't the only thing wrong with them, because Dauntain seem to hold a grudge against the Dreaming for whatever reason and seek to inflict damage upon it and anybody associated with it. I didn't realize this at the time, but one of their possible brands is actually devoted to nihilism, which we talked about earlier. Another brand causes them to spread a magical disease or poison that contaminates the Dreaming wherever they go.

                          The Dauntain have been damaged in such a fashion that they have become anathema to the Dreaming and what it stands for. It rejects their existence, even while it is forced to sustain them.


                          If you're looking for a silver lining to how the Dauntain are treated, you can always put your faith in the Iron Road, which states that death by cold iron actually purifies the fae's soul and enables them to move to a higher state of existence. So really, perma-killing the Dauntain is an act of mercy, rather than cruelty!
                          Oh for goodness sake!
                          Can you please stop peeing in my mouth and tell me it's gatoratde? So fine, Dautain have the moral complexity of D&D skeletons and destroying their very souls is actually a really nice thing to do because it puts them out of their misery. THAT IS MY ENTIRE PROBLEM! They are BOOOOORING! Might as well just have people being killed by a faulty power line for all the narrative difference it makes. "Born evil" is a cop-out and an admission that you just want intelligent enemies you can bludgenoing to death slowly without feeling remorse. That's what I call "bad writing"! Old CtD wasn't masterful in that regard either, but at least it allowed some creative approaches and Dauthain actually had to do thing instead of spreading magic disease by looking at walls.
                          This is a hugely missed opportunity and I stay by that.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Davesknd View Post

                            Oh for goodness sake!
                            Can you please stop peeing in my mouth and tell me it's gatoratde? So fine, Dautain have the moral complexity of D&D skeletons and destroying their very souls is actually a really nice thing to do because it puts them out of their misery. THAT IS MY ENTIRE PROBLEM! They are BOOOOORING! Might as well just have people being killed by a faulty power line for all the narrative difference it makes. "Born evil" is a cop-out and an admission that you just want intelligent enemies you can bludgenoing to death slowly without feeling remorse. That's what I call "bad writing"! Old CtD wasn't masterful in that regard either, but at least it allowed some creative approaches and Dauthain actually had to do thing instead of spreading magic disease by looking at walls.
                            This is a hugely missed opportunity and I stay by that.

                            I wouldn't exactly say they have the moral complexity of skeletons. Skeletons are (usually) just mindless puppets of whatever necromancer happens to be controlling them at the time. They have no personality or soul of their own, so smashing them to pieces is no different from smashing a doll, except for the likelihood of desecrating somebody's corpse.


                            But even if they are damaged beyond repair, the Dauntain are still living, breathing people with minds of their own. Just because you are severely traumatized does not mean you suddenly stop being a person, and believing otherwise is quite a dangerous view point.

                            From what I'm understanding of the situation, the Dauntain are a deadly threat to the Dreaming, and the Fae way of life. Okay, sure, that's enough for them to paint a target on their backs. But what about the Dauntain's presence among the Autumn World, and those not connected with the Dreaming? How do they view the Dauntain? How do the Dauntain view them? The Dreaming may reject them, but it sounds like the Autumn World has welcomed them with open arms. And if Dauntain start going missing, people are going to want to investigate the disappearances, and could possibly mistake those responsible for being involved in some kind of murder cult. The Changelings would certainly appear to be under some kind of mass delusion from an outside perspective, after all.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                              I wouldn't exactly say they have the moral complexity of skeletons. Skeletons are (usually) just mindless puppets of whatever necromancer happens to be controlling them at the time. They have no personality or soul of their own, so smashing them to pieces is no different from smashing a doll, except for the likelihood of desecrating somebody's corpse.


                              But even if they are damaged beyond repair, the Dauntain are still living, breathing people with minds of their own. Just because you are severely traumatized does not mean you suddenly stop being a person, and believing otherwise is quite a dangerous view point.

                              From what I'm understanding of the situation, the Dauntain are a deadly threat to the Dreaming, and the Fae way of life. Okay, sure, that's enough for them to paint a target on their backs. But what about the Dauntain's presence among the Autumn World, and those not connected with the Dreaming? How do they view the Dauntain? How do the Dauntain view them? The Dreaming may reject them, but it sounds like the Autumn World has welcomed them with open arms. And if Dauntain start going missing, people are going to want to investigate the disappearances, and could possibly mistake those responsible for being involved in some kind of murder cult. The Changelings would certainly appear to be under some kind of mass delusion from an outside perspective, after all.
                              Absolutely. And this is just some of the drama that can stem from an encounter with the Dauntain. I could imagine that you could run a very thought-provoking game of consequences, appearances, racism and xenophobia, and how these things pull the dual human-fae soul in multiple directions.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                                I wouldn't exactly say they have the moral complexity of skeletons. Skeletons are (usually) just mindless puppets of whatever necromancer happens to be controlling them at the time. They have no personality or soul of their own, so smashing them to pieces is no different from smashing a doll, except for the likelihood of desecrating somebody's corpse.


                                But even if they are damaged beyond repair, the Dauntain are still living, breathing people with minds of their own. Just because you are severely traumatized does not mean you suddenly stop being a person, and believing otherwise is quite a dangerous view point.

                                From what I'm understanding of the situation, the Dauntain are a deadly threat to the Dreaming, and the Fae way of life. Okay, sure, that's enough for them to paint a target on their backs. But what about the Dauntain's presence among the Autumn World, and those not connected with the Dreaming? How do they view the Dauntain? How do the Dauntain view them? The Dreaming may reject them, but it sounds like the Autumn World has welcomed them with open arms. And if Dauntain start going missing, people are going to want to investigate the disappearances, and could possibly mistake those responsible for being involved in some kind of murder cult. The Changelings would certainly appear to be under some kind of mass delusion from an outside perspective, after all.

                                No you don't get it, do you? It's very easy to grab one and beat the chimerical snot out of them until they are undone and their fairy souls go dormant. Then you leave the human behind and deal with the Dauthain's return when it comes back. Just keep an eye on them with Kenning and Soothsay. The mists take care of the rest. No big deal. Everyone has to go alone some time and they won't remember since their Banality is high as heck. Autumn world impact: Some guy sleeps in really long on a weirdly regular basis. No moral qualms. Killing a Chimera has more impact. Changelings die differently from humans. You have to keep that in mind! And no, that's not gaming the system. The Fae know how the Dreaming works.

                                If a Dauthan can be reintegrated on the other hand (like they could be in CtD, heck, "The Autumn People" had rules to make your character a Dauthain for a while so you could play a redemption arc) you actually have a conundrum. You want to basically take a person who oozes banality and who might hate the Dreaming and shove as much Glamour back into them as possible. Maybe they fight back. Maybe they go along and screw up your personal quest. Maybe they go along and betray you. Maybe something else happens. But at least you have OPTIONS! Heck, having some incredibly strict politician around, who runs on a platform of getting fiction books out of public libraries and having them take part in a Satyr song contest would make for an amazing session!

                                (PS: The Path of Iron is the dumbest thing I have ever seen! Changelings CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THEY DIE! Chimerical death: Mien dissipates and human remains, asleep but alive. Real Death: Human falls over dead, Fae mien remains visible via Kenning and becomes more and more ideal until the darkness itself pulls in back into the body it will reincarnate in. Death by cold iron: The fae mien is visibly torn asunder as it suffers the death of consciousness and the perpetrators get permanent banality every time, while being incapable of filling up their Glamour and remaining in constant pain as long as they keep their weapons. Nobody is that stupid! No, not even Ogres!)
                                (PPS: To express how I feel right now https://youtu.be/uR0WoO87Qyw?t=4m56s )
                                Last edited by Davesknd; 01-24-2018, 12:21 PM.

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