Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A conundrum about the difference between Autumn and Arcadian sidhe

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by zenten View Post

    The "balance" in the Accordance War was more numbers on the commoners, and power and organization on the Arcadian nobles.

    And a noninsignficant number of Autumn Fae sided with the Returning nobles because it was basically "Jesus-Arthur has returned and all he's asking me to do is pledge... so much glamour"

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Lian View Post


      And a noninsignficant number of Autumn Fae sided with the Returning nobles because it was basically "Jesus-Arthur has returned and all he's asking me to do is pledge... so much glamour"
      True. And even then it wasn't an overwhelming victory for the sidhe.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by zenten View Post

        True. And even then it wasn't an overwhelming victory for the sidhe.
        Well, they are the one percent, but hold a majority in the government, own the most of Freeholds, if corebook to be believed and High King isn't a Boggan fella, but Sidhe.

        If it's isn't an overwhelming victory, I don't know what is.

        Now, that I think of it... a prophesized "king", a Boggan, might've been a completely different story.

        Originally posted by mattboggan View Post

        Well, in this configuration, the newly Sained Arcadian childling sidhe would have more Glamour and less Banality than the older, more experienced Autumn grump sidhe. I don't see how it would balance things out.

        And, sorry, but again, this doesn't answer my questions.
        You can use any other system, that has different system of character creation, either through extremely different prioritization (GURPS) or the one, that does favor different concepts pretty much the same i.e. old fae having experience and arcane lore and having a beginner's luck and Dreaming's favor (Fate Core).

        Alternatively, you can limit certain character concepts, unless it's high powered game, or your table is extremely tolerant to variable power levels and you're pretty sure you can make it so that more powerful characters couldn't brute forces all problems, just some of them.

        As for your initial question, there is no good canon answer, you'd have to rewrite Sidhe from scratch which would in turn wreck half of the canon history to make it coherent enough... or embrace what Chronos Nobles: The Shining Host tells us about Sidhe i.e. my first post.
        Last edited by Firkraag; 11-07-2017, 12:17 AM.


        ...

        Comment


        • #19
          I'd let the flexibility of chargen deal with this, perhaps with a few tweaks. You could, for instance, say that Arcadians can only use their Background dots to buy mystical Backgrounds and must use Freebies to increase mundane ones, while Autumnals do the opposite. Then, if necessary, give extra Freebie points which can only be spent in the relevant spheres of influence (Arcadians must spend them on Arts, Realms, Backgrounds like Remembrance and Chimera, etc; Autumnals must spend them on Attributes, Abilities, Backgrounds like Contacts and Resources, etc). That way you retain balance while letting Arcadians shine as the magic-users and Autumnals shine as pretty much everything else.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by zenten View Post

            True. And even then it wasn't an overwhelming victory for the sidhe.
            "The Accordance War: It is generally accepted that the sidhe were winning this war when it came to a close. What is not generally accepted is just how close to total victory they came. Many commoners underestimate the power of the nobility, but the commoner leadership has a clearer picture of sidhe power. Despite occasional talks of revolution, there are few commoner leaders who wish to repeat the near-disaster of the Accordance War."

            -- Nobles: the Shining Host, p. 85-86 in the Storyteller's History section.

            Also, the Five Years War was even a clearer victory for the sidhe in Europe, except, of course, with the Galacian Confederation.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
              I'd let the flexibility of chargen deal with this, perhaps with a few tweaks. You could, for instance, say that Arcadians can only use their Background dots to buy mystical Backgrounds and must use Freebies to increase mundane ones, while Autumnals do the opposite. Then, if necessary, give extra Freebie points which can only be spent in the relevant spheres of influence (Arcadians must spend them on Arts, Realms, Backgrounds like Remembrance and Chimera, etc; Autumnals must spend them on Attributes, Abilities, Backgrounds like Contacts and Resources, etc). That way you retain balance while letting Arcadians shine as the magic-users and Autumnals shine as pretty much everything else.
              Good ideas, especially the first one. I like it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mattboggan View Post
                Okay, bear with me, it's going to be a bit long.

                In books like Nobles: the Shining Host or The Fool's Luck, we learnt that the sidhe who just came back to Earth from Arcadia with the Resurgence, though forgetful of Arcadia and their purpose in coming back because of the Mists, retained much of their ancient powers as Arcadian fae. They still had access to most of their Arts and even ancient words of power forgotten on Earth. This explains in part why they were victorious in the Accordance War, despite their unfamiliarity with the Waking Lands and their frailty regarding Banality. It is hinted in the different sourcebooks that this may be explained because of the peculiar Changeling Way used by the sidhe: they replaced their human host's soul with their own, sending the human soul back to Arcadia. Having not really mingled with a human soul, the fae spirit retained most of her powers.

                Yet, other sidhe had decided to incarnate in yet-unborn children. How did this work is left unexplained (the Dreaming might be simply fickle.) Thus, they were born later and not in 1969. We also have examples of sidhe who came back after the Resurgence itself. For instance, in "Quixote Syndrome", the story in The Book of Storyteller's Secrets, first ed., the character of Naise of House Liam is exiled by his once-lover in Arcadia, Keridwen. These sidhe had later Chrysalis and so when their faerie mien emerged, they were less powerful. For instance, in the Immortal Eyes trilogy, Eleighanara was a Fiona sidhe and was in her late 10s or early 20s in 1995 (so she must have been born somewhere around 1975).

                Question 1): May we consider these sidhe as Autumn sidhe? It was not considered like this in previous books, as only the sidhe of House Scathach suffered the stigmas associated with Autumn sidhe. But why not? I mean, if they didn't bond with a human soul, why would they be less powerful?

                Still other sidhe chose to undergo the Changeling Way as commoners do: instead of sending it back to Arcadia, they mingled their fae spirit with a yet unborn human soul. These ones are, properly called, the Autumn sidhe. Apart from the Scathach, we know that a handful of sidhe, most of them from Houses Liam and Fiona, from other houses chose this way. Also, it is said that Gwydion himself chose the Changeling Way during the Shattering and was reincarnated several times. In the Immortal Eyes trilogy, it is strongly suggested that Morgan is the reincarnation of a powerful Eiluned sorceress who came back during the Resurgence and died during the Battle of the Redwoods and who was the sister of the Queen of Munster in Ireland.

                Question 2): To me this means that during the Second Resurgence, the sidhe of Houses Beaumayn, Aesin, etc. were for the most part Arcadian sidhe and thus very powerful. So how do you handle a PC from a newly returned house? In The Book of Lost Houses, the starting PCs are just regular ones, which seems not logical to me. A regular beginning PC must have been born at the time of the Resurgence (so around 1969 or 1999) and then must have had her Chrysalis at least six years later (I think it is very uncommon to have Chrysalis before the age of six), so not before 1975 for the sidhe who came with the first Resurgence (or so, which fits for Eleighnara) or before 2005 for the sidhe who came with Second Resurgence.

                Question 3): What about Arcadian commoners who came back with their sidhe lords and ladies?

                My game is set in 2002-2003. A player from my group wants to play an Eiluned sorceress. I have three options: either she returned in 1969 or 1999 (but then it means that she must be very powerful, which is not fit for a starting PC) or she returned at a later date, which means that she incarnated differently. Or she might even be an Autumn sidhe, though it is unlikely for an Eiluned sidhe (but it may be a very good opportunity for an interesting character story).

                How do you handle these matters?
                C20 introduced the concept of glimmers: bursts of glamour that are micro-Resurgences. To keep the tone and impact of the actual 1969 Resurgence intact, I handle glimmers prior to the moon landing to be where the Arcadian commoners came from. Being commoners, they wouldn't know the traditionalist sidhe methods of possessing a human body, so regardless of whether they returned with their sidhe lords or prior, their only option would be to adopt the Changeling Way (which is probably why C20 doesn't go in-depth in regards to how Arcadian commoners differ from regular commoners).

                C20 also specifies that Houses Scathach and Liam are Autumn Sidhe (in the Autumn Sidhe section), as well as completely does away with how changelings age. It's now based on their outlook on life, so while most are childling-wilder-grump, it can be in any order, effectively making them potentially immortal (though most die of unnatural causes or become undone instead, obviously). To keep their mortal sides alive, Arcadian Sidhe have a habit of holing up in freeholds, since changelings don't age while in the dreaming. This could provide an in-story universe as to why the 1e and 2e NPC character ages never made sense; they could be choosing to risk bedlam over the risk of mortal or chimerical deaths.

                In regards to Morgan, this could be literally anything. The three best ideas I would personally toy with are A) a lie about it being a reincarnation, B) finally having obtained proof that Arcadian sidhe do indeed reincarnate, or C) the revelation that Arcadian sidhe are actually just the first lifetime of a new Autumn sidhe changeling.

                As for the "Second Resurgence," this wasn't 1999, it was 2001 during the Evanescence (though personally, I believe Evanescent sidhe are actually just sevartal claiming to be more Arcadian sidhe). However, it's moot. We're told glimmers are still bringing more Arcadian sidhe even after the Evanescence.

                My final note is to flat-out disagree that Arcadian sidhe must be very powerful. The only thing unique to Arcadian sidhe in C20 is the way they adopt a mortal body (stealing one rather than using the Changeling Way) and their birthrights, neither or which give them an automatic edge in everything. The way individual arts work changed, while title-based treasures don't exist anymore. In other words, Arcadian sidhe are only as powerful as you allow them to be in your game.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Slanzer View Post
                  My final note is to flat-out disagree that Arcadian sidhe must be very powerful. The only thing unique to Arcadian sidhe in C20 is the way they adopt a mortal body (stealing one rather than using the Changeling Way) and their birthrights, neither or which give them an automatic edge in everything. The way individual arts work changed, while title-based treasures don't exist anymore. In other words, Arcadian sidhe are only as powerful as you allow them to be in your game.
                  That is exactly correct. It's a common mistake to confuse background flavor "Arcadian Sidhe were very powerful", with actual rules "All starting characters are the same power level".

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Slanzer View Post

                    C20 also specifies that Houses Scathach and Liam are Autumn Sidhe (in the Autumn Sidhe section), as well as completely does away with how changelings age. It's now based on their outlook on life, so while most are childling-wilder-grump, it can be in any order, effectively making them potentially immortal (though most die of unnatural causes or become undone instead, obviously). To keep their mortal sides alive, Arcadian Sidhe have a habit of holing up in freeholds, since changelings don't age while in the dreaming. This could provide an in-story universe as to why the 1e and 2e NPC character ages never made sense; they could be choosing to risk bedlam over the risk of mortal or chimerical deaths.
                    I do not see the new take on seemings as reverse aging.

                    I understand that, while having become a grump, a changeling can switch to wilder or even childling, this means that mentally he finds back a way at looking at the world which is younger. But his human body does not get younger.

                    As for the "Second Resurgence," this wasn't 1999, it was 2001 during the Evanescence (though personally, I believe Evanescent sidhe are actually just sevartal claiming to be more Arcadian sidhe). However, it's moot. We're told glimmers are still bringing more Arcadian sidhe even after the Evanescence.
                    Well, yes it was. The Second Resurgence happened in the wake of the Week of Nightmares (Book of Lost Houses). I still don't understand why C20 ignored the Week of Nightmares when other game lines (Vampire, Werewolf) kept it.

                    My final note is to flat-out disagree that Arcadian sidhe must be very powerful. The only thing unique to Arcadian sidhe in C20 is the way they adopt a mortal body (stealing one rather than using the Changeling Way) and their birthrights, neither or which give them an automatic edge in everything. The way individual arts work changed, while title-based treasures don't exist anymore. In other words, Arcadian sidhe are only as powerful as you allow them to be in your game.
                    You may disagree, but it is clearly stated in several books. And it's the main explanation of why the sidhe won the Accordance War.

                    Now, I agree, this brings up a problem: how to reflect this for PCs who are Arcadian sidhe? The rules are not tailored to do that (and it's quite understandable).

                    Comment

                    Working...
                    X