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Do the Mists no longer affect other supernaturals?

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  • #16
    By the way, the Mists are also what keeps mortals from seeing a Changeling's fae mien. So apparently the OPs ST got rid of that for werewolves and vampires too?

    At least this means supernaturals in the World of Darkness are vulnerable to Chimerical damage in this game, as that's another thing the Mists protects unenchanted mortals from.
    Last edited by zenten; 12-03-2017, 11:26 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by zenten View Post
      By the way, the Mists are also what keeps mortals from seeing a Changeling's fae mien. So apparently the OPs ST got rid of that for werewolves and vampires too?

      At least this means supernaturals in the World of Darkness are vulnerable to Chimerical damage in this game, as that's another thing the Mists protects unenchanted mortals from.
      Do you have a source for that claim?

      As for my ST, he is following C20 strictly as it is written. And in the book there is absolutely nothing that says the mists either affects supernaturals or that 'mortals' include supernatural as well. I showed him 2nd edition to try to convince him but just got a 'well that's not the case here' and that's what led me to make this thread, to clarify that.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sinister Spider View Post

        Do you have a source for that claim?

        As for my ST, he is following C20 strictly as it is written. And in the book there is absolutely nothing that says the mists either affects supernaturals or that 'mortals' include supernatural as well. I showed him 2nd edition to try to convince him but just got a 'well that's not the case here' and that's what led me to make this thread, to clarify that.
        No offence, but your ST seems to have missed the spirit of the text, if not the letter. The Mists are more than just forgetting about faeries, and they effect everyone (even the fae) in one way or another. They're similar to the Delirium and the Fog in one sense, but they also play a similar role to the Gauntlet in that the Mists are also the metaphysical barriers between human and faerie worlds, and between the various layers of the faerie world (the Vale of Mists is the fabric between each layer, where the Mists are at their strongest).

        I'd have to check C20 again to see how clear that is in the core book, but Dreams & Nightmares makes it clear that the Mists act like the Shroud or the Gauntlet in certain places.

        If the Mists do not apply, that causes multiple problems because they work both ways--they protect the fae but they protect non-fae too. If they don't apply to supernaturals, they lose that protection. The world also loses its metaphysical integrity, in that the Dreaming would no longer be separate from the Autumn World for supernaturals.

        If the Mists no longer apply to supernaturals (which is stupid, because they apply even to changelings), then one world slips easily into the next. Set foot outside your haven and step into a Nightmare Realm. Go to sleep and find yourself in the Deep Dreaming. It seems a huge mistake to just ignore the Mists.

        Perhaps your ST is separating the Mists' forgetting properties from its Gauntlet-like properties, but either way, it implies he's not really grasped the concept fully.

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        • #19
          This Mists are the Dreaming's defense against Banality. They affect anything with a Banality rating. In the context of Changeling: The Dreaming, that's everything living (or un-living) on Earth. Just because C20 doesn't provide blanket statements about how much Banality a given clan, tribe, or tradition has doesn't mean that other supernaturals lack Banality for the purposes of crossover.


          Charlie Cantrell
          Onyx Path Freelancer
          Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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          • #20
            Double checked: refer your ST to pp.45-6 of C20. It's clear that the Mists are a 'barrier' between worlds, and that the Forgetting is just one effect of that barrier (but one that even changelings succumb to).

            That section also suggests that its mortals' Banality ratings that make them susceptible to the Forgetting, not their mortality per se: 'The force of Banality in most mortals keeps them from perceiving anything outside of what they believe can exist.' It's Banality, not mortality, that causes the Forgetting. Specifically, it's the interaction between Banality and the Mists that causes it (p.45), so any being with high enough Banality will be affected.

            The section on Prodigals from p.345 onwards, explicitly refers to them as fae. Thus, at the very least, the same system should apply to supernaturals as to faeries when it comes to Banality. Also of note, these creatures aren't devoid of Banality--they all have ratings given, and so experience the consequences and benefits thereof.

            Also of note: p.347 explicitly says it's Toreadors' powers of sight (Auspex) that allows them to see fae. The implication being that vampires without this power can't see the fae naturally. Extrapolate as necessary (Mind/Spirit, Heightened Senses, certain Gifts are probably required to see faeries).

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            • #21
              Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe
              The section on Prodigals from p.345 onwards, explicitly refers to them as fae. Thus, at the very least, the same system should apply to supernaturals as to faeries when it comes to Banality. Also of note, these creatures aren't devoid of Banality--they all have ratings given, and so experience the consequences and benefits thereof.
              Well, you used to need Fae realm to affect them, if I remember correctly, so it makes sense.

              'The force of Banality in most mortals keeps them from perceiving anything outside of what they believe can exist.'
              So mortals can't remember because Banality prevents them from seeing things outside what they believe. However supernatural belief tends to be a bit more complicated than that: For instance, Splats doesn't count as witnesses in Mage regardless of their beliefs. Only the very rare "sleepwalker" count as witnesses-for other mages or beings, it would seem that they believe in the impossible at some subconscious level because the belief system of the supernatural or her personal experience doesn't seem to matter, they just don't count-unlike mortals, that may or may not count as witness depending on their experience and beliefs (to the point that one mortal that may not count for one Paradigm but count for another).

              Pondering in all of that, I think that it would make sense that supers count as faes for the purposes of remembering, but not necessarily for other stuff because this would be a function of them being "awakened creatures"unless they have a Defect that makes them count as mortals (like Sleepwalker in Mage). This would explain the interactions and the need for aditional powers to see faes and fae stuff (something that Faes can do naturally. Perhaps because they have an innate Talent to do so that other splats don't have?).
              Last edited by Aleph; 12-07-2017, 12:06 PM.

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              • #22
                Traditionally, other supernaturals count as mortals for the purposes of Realms and the Mists. There haven't been any crossover rules written for C20, but previous crossover rules will work fine (or as fine as the crossover rules ever worked) with C20.

                Off the top of my head though, I'd probably switch things up so that supernaturals require Fae 3 to affect since from the Changeling perspective, they're all wayward creatures of the Dreaming.


                Charlie Cantrell
                Onyx Path Freelancer
                Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
                  This Mists are the Dreaming's defense against Banality. They affect anything with a Banality rating. In the context of Changeling: The Dreaming, that's everything living (or un-living) on Earth. Just because C20 doesn't provide blanket statements about how much Banality a given clan, tribe, or tradition has doesn't mean that other supernaturals lack Banality for the purposes of crossover.
                  Thank you. To be honest I was shocked when my ST said there wasn't anything saying that it affected other supernaturals because I never dwelled into it for assuming it was the same as 2nd ed.

                  The issue here isn't that it doesn't specifically mention a tribe or clan but that it only addresses 'mortals' being affected by the Mists. Personally I've always thought that mortals should include other non-changeling supernaturals but I don't really blame my ST for interpreting otherwise. C20 has changed quite a bit of 2nd ed. fundamentals so for all I know this could be another change too. 2nd also uses the term mortals but makes it clear that it includes unenchanted supernaturals (page 208), while C20 does not. I made this thread to try and clarify that.

                  Well, you used to need Fae realm to affect them, if I remember correctly, so it makes sense.
                  From CtD 2nd ed. page 188:
                  'Actor: This Realm concerns itself with mortals. The higher the Realm, the less the caster must personally know the person. This Realm includes supernatural beings such as vampires, wraiths, etc., but not other fae.'

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                  • #24
                    The Mists aren't about paradigms, that's Mage territory. The Mists are part of why most mortals don't believe in Changelings, but you *can* have a Banality 10 hunter of the fae.

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                    • #25
                      Your ST is wrong. Refer to the Banality ratings in the back of C20. Anything with Banality is affected by the Mists.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Sinister Spider View Post

                        From CtD 2nd ed. page 188:
                        'Actor: This Realm concerns itself with mortals. The higher the Realm, the less the caster must personally know the person. This Realm includes supernatural beings such as vampires, wraiths, etc., but not other fae.'
                        The actor bit in C20 is almost identical. They use the term prodigial iirc. Also interacting with other changelings lower effective banality by two for changelings. It's in the myst section.
                        Last edited by Monkeydjie; Yesterday, 09:17 AM. Reason: Clarification

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