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  • C20 - Kinain Prodigals...

    Having finally been able to read over the C20 book I was thrilled at how Kinain are done. However, someone immediately brought up that Fae Blood is a 4 point merit for Mages and Werewolves. Considering all that Kinain get (Glamour, a Birthright, 1 art and 2 realms) this seems way too powerful for such a merit.

    Is there some drawback I am missing, or should someone taking that merit use the old Enchanted rules where everything needs to be paid for?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Zulkir Jhor View Post
    Having finally been able to read over the C20 book I was thrilled at how Kinain are done. However, someone immediately brought up that Fae Blood is a 4 point merit for Mages and Werewolves. Considering all that Kinain get (Glamour, a Birthright, 1 art and 2 realms) this seems way too powerful for such a merit.

    Is there some drawback I am missing, or should someone taking that merit use the old Enchanted rules where everything needs to be paid for?
    For a point of comparison, the likes of Silver Tolerance and Immune to Wyrm Emanations aren't much more expensive (6-7 vs 4). Merits have never really been the height of sensible balance. Or even a small amount of it, for that matter.

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    • #3
      I think going with having to pay for the Glamour, Arts and Realms separately should generally be fine.

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      • #4
        To be fair I doubt the people who wrote it had kinain and their powers in mind. Personally I'd just house rule the merits out of existence.

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        • #5
          kinain rules are not built for crossover. They are built for playing KInain in a changeling game. We see prodigals written up similarly in the book with Arts and Realms. IF running a Prodigal using its "proper game" with Fae blood my suggestion is to not give them the additional Arts or the Faeblood background as they already have theirown innate powers.

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          • #6
            Hail!

            In WoD, (as I understand it) the old rules overwrites the old ones, but if something hasn't been touched, the old ones stands.

            In multiple older rulebooks it's stated that powers of different beeings don't mesh well.

            Werewolf / Kinfolk with Gnosis can't have Glamour, Mages can't use Arts, etc.

            What you would possible get for your merit are:
            Standing with Kinain;
            Lower Banality;
            A new, but mainly useless Background (Fae Blood);
            Birthright (awesome).

            Personaly I loved the Revised rules better. I don't really know why did they grinded down the rules and gave us these.


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            • #7
              Birthrights are abit better costed than Legendary attribute if you give it with Fae blood, but its really one point plus legendary attribute gives you a special trick with it so.

              One other thing I'd do if I had a fae blooded Shifter is put all the "Fae" type gifts treated as in tribe for them even if they aren't generally available to them at all(like Ceilican and Fianna gifts that they don't share)

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              • #8
                I'd generally say Fae Blooded Prodigals don't get the Glamour/Art/Realm bonuses if you are using the different gamelines' full mechanics together. At most I'd suggest allowing them access to faerie-tie in powers thematic to their kind even if they wouldn't otherwise qualify for them (i.e. Fae-Blooded Vampires can learn Mythercia without needing to feed on the blood of a Kiasyd teacher. Fae-Blooded Werewolves can learn the appropriate Fianna Gifts via their Changeling relatives even if they aren't Fianna; Fae-Blooded Mages can just incorporate faerie lore and the Dreaming into their paradigm, and may have justification to treat faerie-folklore-themed effects as less Vulgar than they'd be for other Mages, etc).


                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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                • #9
                  I am of the opinion that mixing powers/power stats between splats is a bad idea. So my suggestion is don’t do it.

                  As for how to handle Fae blooded Merit within the other splats...

                  For Vampires this is simple as V20, and V20: DA, have given us better rules for feablooded Vampires. So for them I suggest using the Maeghar ”bloodline” and rules associated with it (from The Black Hand: A Guide to the TalkMahe’Ra) or the rules for Kiasyd (the rules found in V20: DA that is) depending on circumstaces and books available to you. Kiasyd, as in Marconius brood, who can reliably embrace more of their kind, including shared appearance trait and discipline set, are just obviously results of experimentation with the Sevartal.

                  For Mages I’d just use the Merit as described in M20 Book of Secrets, that is permanent enchantment and low Banality. I’d also allow one to use it as a reason to buy other supernatural merits, like Legendary Attribute Etc. I also might allow some effects to be cast coincidentally if they would be rotes relying on your Fae heritage.

                  For the Garou I’m not sure if there is a Fae Blood merit for W20 anywhere but probably would just take a page from Mage and go with low Banality and permanent enchantment. Though I would likely also give access to Fae related gifts as well.

                  Unfortunately we dont yet have Wraith20 but in general aside from possibly odd appearance for their corpus, and possibly some memories of such existence, they would have affinity with the Phantasm and Pandemonium arcanoi or possibly just use the Keremet.

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                  • #10
                    Honestly Low banality, permanent enchantment and a birthright isn't a broken level of merits especially since low banality means you are weaker to fae magic, as does permanent enchantment. Most of the Birthrights are less powerful than Legendary attribute(and I wouldn't let someone stack them) there are some that are abit more powerful but they suggest not saying handing out a pooka's shapeshift to Kinain anyway.

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                    • #11
                      Run with it as it's written in the book it comes from with tweaks to make it not silly in crossovers. Kinain can have children who are changelings. I'm not sure where the "faerie blood" merit comes from but it's not in the 20th anniversary merits in the core books and I doubt it's intention is to let the character have changeling children. So I think you're fine with saying a character with that merit is not a kinain at all but still loosely blood related to them. Distant cousins rather than a part of the direct family.

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                      • #12
                        IIRC, mages can't ever have a Glamour rating, and this probably applies to other supernaturals too. I think I read this in one of the old FAQs back in the day.

                        Officially, it's to do with your Avatar (or the equivalent part of your soul): mages' Avatars are Awakened to their own power; fae Avatars are bound to the Dreaming; Garou Avatars are bound to Gaia; Kindred Avatars are bound to the blood; mummy Avatars are bound to Ma'at, etc. So that essentially means you can only have one mystical tie to the universe at any given time. Mages have Arete and Quintessence, so they can't have Glamour too.

                        If a mage were to carry faerie blood, it wouldn't manifest as it does in pure Kinain. As others have said, they might be able to mimic Arts and Realms through their Spheres (possibly conferring the benefits of coincidental magic), but they don't have those traits, per se. Certain Kinain Backgrounds may be fair game, and I may give the character a Birthright, but they couldn't buy the Fae Blood Background or do anything that would require a Glamour roll (although I'd allow them to substitute Quintessence for Glamour where they need to spend points).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                          IIRC, mages can't ever have a Glamour rating, and this probably applies to other supernaturals too. I think I read this in one of the old FAQs back in the day.

                          Officially, it's to do with your Avatar (or the equivalent part of your soul): mages' Avatars are Awakened to their own power; fae Avatars are bound to the Dreaming; Garou Avatars are bound to Gaia; Kindred Avatars are bound to the blood; mummy Avatars are bound to Ma'at, etc. So that essentially means you can only have one mystical tie to the universe at any given time. Mages have Arete and Quintessence, so they can't have Glamour too.
                          The avatar explanation is only for Mage. Everything else just notes that Glamour is a competing power (as in Werewolf, and probably others), or not something that they can use.

                          If a mage were to carry faerie blood, it wouldn't manifest as it does in pure Kinain. As others have said, they might be able to mimic Arts and Realms through their Spheres (possibly conferring the benefits of coincidental magic), but they don't have those traits, per se. Certain Kinain Backgrounds may be fair game, and I may give the character a Birthright, but they couldn't buy the Fae Blood Background or do anything that would require a Glamour roll (although I'd allow them to substitute Quintessence for Glamour where they need to spend points).
                          I wouldn't let trying to fake Arts and Realms be coincidental. That's like trying to fake Gifts - you're not Garou or Fera, so you shouldn't be able to do it unless it's one of the very low-powered ones that kin could conceivably learn, and it'd lock you into a fixed pattern of what rotes you can use based on what kin could likely know and use altogether, so a vast array of effects while trying to play in these rules would be out of the question. With Arts and Realms, I'd expect something even more stringent, with the possibility of using the Dreaming getting angry at you as a potential stand-in for Paradox. Don't try to cheat two systems at once. It doesn't tend to work out too well, especially if you have to live in one and want to be friendly to the other.

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                          • #14
                            What I find amusing is that everyone ignores the most important part of those Merits. The fae are willing to talk to you. In the case of the Garou, they don't kill you on sight. Those can be pretty big benefits.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Scottish View Post
                              What I find amusing is that everyone ignores the most important part of those Merits. The fae are willing to talk to you. In the case of the Garou, they don't kill you on sight. Those can be pretty big benefits.
                              Changelings are willing to talk to whoever. There is a rule about not talking to mortals, but the question of if that applies to Prodigals is probably even more of a question of talking to Kinain anyway.

                              Also, the real big advantage of being Kinain, being enchanted and thus being able to see and remember the fae, is lost if you can't also manipulate Glamour, and most people here are suggesting that Prodigals can't do that.

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