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Question: How does the Kith age corelates with his human age?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    Davesknd apparently REALLY does not like C20, if his comments in the "What happens when a Dauntain's captured?" thread is anything to go by.

    Which, well...just because you don't like one edition doesn't mean you have the right to impose that dislike on someone else.

    Hey, I have no issues with you liking the game. Whatever brings you joy. I just deal with my own pain through jokes. Though putting Fairie Eternity down to 1pt does make sense, so C20 gets a point.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Davesknd View Post
      I just deal with my own pain through jokes.
      C20 must have made you lot of pain. Like having a sexual relationship with a grinder.

      But I understand it. I find lot of x20 material OFFENSIVE / poor quality. The Dauntain rules, the new Kinains, the encouraged homosexuality on Garous (this also means that sexual orientation can be forced, and could lead to a discussion how we could cure it) are too much for my liking.

      And yeh, some of the new / remade Arts are more broken than ever.
      Last edited by Lachdanan; 02-08-2018, 04:44 AM.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

        C20 must have made you lot of pain. Like having a sexual relationship with a grinder.

        But I understand it. I find lot of x20 material OFFENSIVE / poor quality. The Dauntain rules, the new Kinains, the encouraged homosexuality on Garous (this also means that sexual orientation can be forced, and could lead to a discussion how we could cure it) are too much for my liking.

        And yeh, some of the new / remade Arts are more broken than ever.
        There is such a thing? WTF?

        Personally my issue with C20 overall is how vague and badly explained things are. And the more I read it, the more I feel like it dumbed down a lot of the cool stuff 2nd edition had.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

          C20 must have made you lot of pain. Like having a sexual relationship with a grinder.

          But I understand it. I find lot of x20 material OFFENSIVE / poor quality. The Dauntain rules, the new Kinains, the encouraged homosexuality on Garous (this also means that sexual orientation can be forced, and could lead to a discussion how we could cure it) are too much for my liking.
          ...what encouraged homosexuality on Garou? I did a search through the C20 PDF on 'Garou' and 'werewolf', and there's nothing like that there. Nothing on 'gay' or 'homosexual' either.


          Scion 2E: What We Know - A wiki compiling info on second edition Scion.

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          • #20
            I think Lachdanan meant the 20th anniversary series (V20, M20, W20, etc...) when he said "x20", not just the C20. The Garou stuff he is referring should be on the W20.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post

              C20 must have made you lot of pain. Like having a sexual relationship with a grinder.

              But I understand it. I find lot of x20 material OFFENSIVE / poor quality. The Dauntain rules, the new Kinains, the encouraged homosexuality on Garous (this also means that sexual orientation can be forced, and could lead to a discussion how we could cure it) are too much for my liking.

              And yeh, some of the new / remade Arts are more broken than ever.
              It did amaze and ultimately amuse me that so much love and care went into a so disappointing and shoddy product. But then again, that describes way too much of modern Onyx Path. I mean, I'm not a fanboy. First Edition was unplayable without the Player's Guide and Second Edition had parts that I really disliked (Dragon's Ire? Really? My Boggun cook has a Devil Trigger/Super Sayan mode now?). But you know... it was a different time, it was so delightfully refreshing when compared to the other WW games and at least the artwork was amazing.
              C20 was written by the same misery-lovers that committed the game-crime of Beast the Primordeal (The Hague is informed and I will personally reopen Spandau prison for the writers). It never had a chance...

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Davesknd View Post
                C20 was written by the same misery-lovers
                I'm right here. I'm probably the most active, but I'm definitely not the only C20 writer who reads the Changeling forum. It's fine that C20 isn't your cup of tea, but could you please try expressing that without the insults?


                Charlie Cantrell
                Onyx Path Freelancer
                Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds, Guide to the Night, C20 Players Guide

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by marin View Post

                  ...what encouraged homosexuality on Garou? I did a search through the C20 PDF on 'Garou' and 'werewolf', and there's nothing
                  Yep, after the Changing Ways it's cannon that certain tribal leaders encourage homosexual realtionships to circumvent the 1st Law.

                  "Nay to Valkyres, yes to Eric Third Might Pillar!"

                  I loved the Elders more when they were strict, antitolerant, conservative assholes, who forced the Lithany by the letter down in our throat.

                  By the way, I find it nauseating that the writers state that the sexual relationships can be encouraged, so to speak the sexual orientation manipulated by force.

                  And it also contains second grade, Forsaken-scented material.

                  Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                  ...could you please try expressing that without the insults?
                  Based on his comments on this Forum Charlie seems to be a good guy. Rudeness can be a good way to express your anger, but don't make it personal. We're on the same side. RPG lovers are a minority, what doesn't need internal flame-wars.
                  Last edited by Lachdanan; 02-08-2018, 04:09 PM.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

                    I'm right here. I'm probably the most active, but I'm definitely not the only C20 writer who reads the Changeling forum. It's fine that C20 isn't your cup of tea, but could you please try expressing that without the insults?

                    Wasn't meant as one. Just that whenever I open the more recent books, I have the feeling that the current writers seem to actively dislike and reject the very strong sense of black humor and irony that laced the older books. I really get the feeling that you guys really and profoundly enjoy using misery, drearyness and hopelessness without sprinkling in any of the disarming charm and humor that classic WoD had. (Where is the Gummy Gum Gun?)
                    Sorry, no offense meant. I apologize.

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                    • #25
                      And you know: C20 was the game that cemented Changeling: the Dreaming as being *the* World of Darkness game for me.

                      That it clicked with me on the level that Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage didn’t.

                      So watch it.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
                        And you know: C20 was the game that cemented Changeling: the Dreaming as being *the* World of Darkness game for me.

                        That it clicked with me on the level that Vampire, Werewolf, and Mage didn’t.

                        So watch it.
                        I'm honestly glad that you enjoy it and I wish I could as well

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Davesknd View Post
                          I really get the feeling that you guys really and profoundly enjoy using misery, drearyness and hopelessness
                          What can I say? The '90s were formative years for me. I unironically enjoy a good, new miserable experience

                          Seriously though, the dichotomy between the crushing hopelessness and the unadulterated whimsy is one of the things I've always loved about Changeling: The Dreaming. I definitely try to leave the door open for wonder in my Changeling work while still establishing that yes, it is a World of Darkness gameline and yes, it is a horror setting. It's a balancing act, and how well I pull it off (or don't) is certainly up to the reader's interpretation.

                          Hopefully you'll enjoy Book of Freeholds more when it drops, but reading your posts, I'm not sure you will. I tried to call back to all eras of Changeling: The Dreaming's publication in my sections, but it is tonally in line with C20 and the supplements released so far.
                          Last edited by PookaKnight; 02-08-2018, 05:02 PM.


                          Charlie Cantrell
                          Onyx Path Freelancer
                          Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds, Guide to the Night, C20 Players Guide

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Davesknd View Post
                            C20 was written by the same misery-lovers that committed the game-crime of Beast the Primordeal
                            In the future, please try to keep your critique to the product, not the people who make it, and avoid namecalling.

                            Originally posted by Lachdanan View Post
                            Based on his comments on this Forum Charlie seems to be a good guy. Rudeness can be a good way to express your anger, but don't make it personal. We're on the same side. RPG lovers are a minority, what doesn't need internal flame-wars.
                            Rudeness is not a good way to express anything in a public forum where rules 1 and 2 are “respect other people” and “respect the conversation.” If you want to avoid flame-wars, then don’t start the fire, and don’t blame other people for taking personal attacks personally.


                            Onyx Path Forum Moderator

                            My mod voice is red. I use it so you know when I'm speaking in an official capacity, not as an indication of tone.

                            Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                            • #29
                              Put another way: there's a reason why other WoD fans had the (mis)conception that the gameline was nothing but light-hearted rainbows and unicorns.

                              C20 dispels that notion by clarifying some of the darker parts of Changeling but still keeping the aspects of dreams and wonder. Having both makes the game much more nuanced and interesting so it's not always so one-note. Which I would rather have aside from being the one thing.

                              (conversely I've heard of the one fan who calls Changeling as the actual most depressing game in World of Darkness, and that it's actually more depressing then Wraith. and that it's been that way since 1st-2nd edition)

                              EDIT: Did not see the mod post above.

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                              • #30
                                Mostly you take all of these games and make of them into whatever you want them to be. It's not always the simplest task but if you pull it off the rewards can be worth it. For example (and getting back to the original topic a bit) I understand the Seeming vs apparent or actual mortal age thing going on and how they can seem quite out of sync. I actually think that's pretty cool but I probably won't be exploring it at first. It may be too much detail too soon for my players.

                                The game I'm running looks to be a Werewolf/Changeling crossover I'm at least initially setting in the Dark ages at the fringes of the war between the Tremere and Tzimisce. The players are new to the setting havnig played just one module for Vampire: the Dark Ages. I'm taking a bit of a "show don't tell" approach with the game setting lore and if it works well, I may fast forward time and have them playing descendents of their original characters... which just coincidentally allows for easy course correction and/or experimentation in case something isn't working. So... What I want to do is not necessarily trivial with all the crossovers, it might blow up in my face, and it's almost certain to veer sharply away from canon at some point or other. But if everyone has fun then it's a successful game. Along the way I plan to take a big cartoon hammer to any setting detail or rules mechanic that gets in the way of that.

                                For some perspective, my original WoD experiences were early Vampire and Werewolf editions (later just Vampire). The guy running it only knew how to run D&D so everything was that sort of "here's some superficial puzzle and next you meet a lot of people you'll need to beat up" thing. It was frustratingly far from my style of game but we were friends so played together a lot. They later graduated to a powergaming approach to it that felt a bit like superheroes with fangs. I tried interesting them in Changeling when it came out because their style of play would have fit it better than Vampire but they weren't really willing to give it a shot. They liked Vampire even though their approach to stuff like the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand book had a lot more in common with a shopping list than a mystery plot. But they got one thing really right: they were playing the game they wanted to play. As a matter of fact the only real problem was it took them awhile to figure out how to run games that included the tastes and preferences of all their players.

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