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Why are Sluagh and Redcaps Kithain and not Thallain?

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  • Why are Sluagh and Redcaps Kithain and not Thallain?

    So I believe this is *a* question that's been circling the game for awhile but...

    Why are the Sluagh and Redcaps considered Kithain and not Thallain?

    Regular kithain are considered to be creatures that promote dreams and wonder, while thallain push for nightmares and fear. Sluagh and redcaps seem to fall more in the latter then the former (which is mechanically represented by their Revelries). So what is it that makes them different from the thallain? Or, in another way, why are they less-nightmar-ish then their counterparts the bogies or the ghasts?

    (and if this question is already answered in officially material, please direct me to them!)

  • zenten
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

    Who said anything about covering it up? The theme of "Shadows and Secrets" covers a wide range of material, and modern day boogieman who lurks in closets and under beds to frighten people - be it one scaring kids who have misbehaved or the radical commoner terrorist assassin hiding under the local Baron's bed to keep him in check or even the online deep web hacker who uncovers the misdoings of corporations and politicians - is a perfectly viable character concept.
    Or you just do it to Muse fear.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post
    ...granted the idea of sluagh once being bogeymen is something worth looking into and exploring and not something to just sweep under the rug.
    Who said anything about covering it up? The theme of "Shadows and Secrets" covers a wide range of material, and modern day boogieman who lurks in closets and under beds to frighten people - be it one scaring kids who have misbehaved or the radical commoner terrorist assassin hiding under the local Baron's bed to keep him in check or even the online deep web hacker who uncovers the misdoings of corporations and politicians - is a perfectly viable character concept.

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  • Possessed
    replied
    All Kithain are creatures of both Dreams and Nightmares, some leaning towards one way or the other.

    The Sidhe for example can represent Dreams of nobility, beauty and honor or embody Nightmares of tyranny and cruelty.

    Nockers can represent Dreams of creation, creativity, intelligence and exploration but they can also embody Nightmares of underground places, darkness, claustrophobia and of course Mad inventors bend on creating horrible weapons, not to mention Nightmares of pure frustration stemming from the inability to create anything perfect as your foul tongue curses all things you create.

    Pooka can be Dreams of fluffy cute animals, or anthros, making silly jokes or they can be Nightmares of feral nature, wolves at your door, the frigging Jaws. Nature is full of nightmarish things. Even their humor can easily twist into Joker like madness.

    Sluagh are Nightmares of the unseen, things lurking in the darkness, of secrets best left unknown, of spiders and insects (something they share with the Pooka), of death, decay and ghosts or they can be Dreams of knowledge and wisdom, of secrets shared and communion with loved ones who have passed away.

    Redcaps are Nightmares of hunger, cold, wind and death. They are Nightmares of cruel bullies and domination. But they can also be Dreams of courage, of the hunter who goes after dangerous prey, monster slayers and protectors of those weaker than themselves.

    Etc.

    All Kithain are formed from both Dreams and Nightmares alike. The Thallain on the other hand are so heavily leaning towards Nightmares that there are barely any redeeming Dream influences left, they could try to be part of the Dreams but their very nature, and Legacies, just pushes them to twist things untill the Dream is no Lore and only Nightmares remain. Bogies cannot represent Dreams the Sluagh can due to their hunger for bodily fluids, blood, marrow, licvor, bile Etc. The C20 introduced us to the Ghast whom do have the frailty of needing to kill people, or well steal and eat their organs, which is kinda like what the Nyrufa suggested for the Redcaps, and their kind of bodily horror should be readily apparent. So while even the Thallain could try to represent Dreams it tends to be difficult for them to do so and will definately be going against their nature while the Kithain can represent either Dreams or Nightmares without conflicting with their own nature.

    Naturally YMMV but this is my personal view of things.

    As for morality? I think the Fae are in many ways beyond such mortal matters. As beings of Dreams and Nightmares they can change from one to the other in a heartbeat, morality rarely enters the picture. Like Zenten I play Changelings Legacy and Court as their moral compass which as you can guess is kinda important in differiating Kithain for Thallain as only the latter have a Nightmare Legacy to guide them.

    Leave a comment:


  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by zenten View Post
    But it should be left as an option. Heck, one of the other games (Werewolf) has killing as basically still required, or at least a pacifist Werewolf would be considered odd.
    Sure, left as an option. Just not the ONLY option.

    (...incidentally, Werewolf is kind of its whole other thing compared to Changeling)

    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    Well said. Fear and Hunger are part of being alive, and sometimes it is the light that strikes fear into the heart of darkness. Imagine a Red Cap warrior-knight of House Gwydion whose very name fills Thallain with dread because he's essentially the urban fantasy version of Batman, only meaner.

    As for the Sluagh, they're all about Shadows and Secrets, which lends itself to all sorts of Addams Family-style phantasmagoric fun.
    Fair enough.

    ...granted the idea of sluagh once being bogeymen is something worth looking into and exploring and not something to just sweep under the rug.

    Although I guess to branch things out: what makes the nightmares these two kiths spread different from the ones that Thallain do?

    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    Isn't that why they have multiple splats to choose from, though? If you want to be the fighter type who doesn't stab somebody in the face for looking at you wrong, you can pick a Troll, or possibly a Satyr.

    Redcaps are meant to represent dreams of hunger, destruction and violence. Forcing them to kill people, or at the very least extract samples of blood from them, would have been keeping to their theme and would have made a lot more sense as to why they're so often feared and hated by the rest of Changeling society.
    Well, if Beast: the Primordial over in CofD taught me anything, is that you don't *have* to kill humans to propagate dreams of hunger, destruction, and violence. That there are other ways of going about it.

    Originally posted by Saint Michael View Post
    In-game, part of the justification, I think, is that redcaps and sluagh were on the winning side of the war. The entire redcap kith may have rebelled against the Fomorians out of sheer spite and not liking being ordered about by non-redcaps, but the Tuatha apparently don't care why they chose to do so; only that they did. Sluagh are fond of terror, but they probably don't torture people for fun, even if they could get past the excessive noise it would cause. So they ended up on the same side as the other eight (or eleven) kith. Thus making them Kithain.
    ...yeah that works too.

    Started reading the redcap kithbook, and in their earlier history its said that they kind of just...kept to themselves. And only pitched in to wider Kithain efforts because of how things would affect them.

    Originally posted by zenten View Post
    I'm realizing now I took the whole "humans have a morality trait and Changelings don't" to heart a lot more than most people. Generally I play characters as taking their Legacy and Court Codes as their moral compass, unless their Banality gets high.
    I think the guys on the Walking Away from Arcadia podcast even pointed out that stuff like the Autumn and Winter Arts in C20, in any other game, would be considered the type of stuff that BSDs, Nephandi, Spectres, etc would take...but NOPE, ordinary Kithain PCs can take them 'cause the fae don't give a fuck!!!

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  • zenten
    replied
    I'm realizing now I took the whole "humans have a morality trait and Changelings don't" to heart a lot more than most people. Generally I play characters as taking their Legacy and Court Codes as their moral compass, unless their Banality gets high.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    My (infrequent) Changeling games have used the Redcap "blooding" ritual/rite of passage, but it doesn't necessarily have to use human blood.

    Leave a comment:


  • Saint Michael
    replied
    In-game, part of the justification, I think, is that redcaps and sluagh were on the winning side of the war. The entire redcap kith may have rebelled against the Fomorians out of sheer spite and not liking being ordered about by non-redcaps, but the Tuatha apparently don't care why they chose to do so; only that they did. Sluagh are fond of terror, but they probably don't torture people for fun, even if they could get past the excessive noise it would cause. So they ended up on the same side as the other eight (or eleven) kith. Thus making them Kithain.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    And it should ultimately be up to the players on what kind of monster they want to play as.

    That they shouldn’t have to be the type of monster that regularly kills people because the game says so.

    Isn't that why they have multiple splats to choose from, though? If you want to be the fighter type who doesn't stab somebody in the face for looking at you wrong, you can pick a Troll, or possibly a Satyr.

    Redcaps are meant to represent dreams of hunger, destruction and violence. Forcing them to kill people, or at the very least extract samples of blood from them, would have been keeping to their theme and would have made a lot more sense as to why they're so often feared and hated by the rest of Changeling society.

    I mean, they didn't make the Arcadian nobles give up their ideals of aristocracy and being objectively superior to everybody around them. Hell, the Dreaming itself pretty much gave them the thumbs up when they finally returned to the Autumn World.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 04-05-2018, 08:09 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Jane_Dargason View Post
    Because they are Fear, Hunger, and the Drive for Survival. Fear and Hunger aren't exclusively things of Nightmare, Fear can Drive People to Overcome it and Better themselves or put comment sense needed for survival in order while Hunger can bring out a raw sort of Cleverness and Instinct in order to satiate the need to continue. These things helped Humanity in the Early Days most definitely. Plus both Kiths have significantly evolved since the mythic era.
    Well said. Fear and Hunger are part of being alive, and sometimes it is the light that strikes fear into the heart of darkness. Imagine a Red Cap warrior-knight of House Gwydion whose very name fills Thallain with dread because he's essentially the urban fantasy version of Batman, only meaner.

    As for the Sluagh, they're all about Shadows and Secrets, which lends itself to all sorts of Addams Family-style phantasmagoric fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lian
    replied
    Originally posted by zenten View Post

    I was under the impression in Changeling that most redcaps still follow that tradition, although most don't use wool hats anymore.

    No more than Pooka regularly drown people who try to ride them anymore...

    Leave a comment:


  • zenten
    replied
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    And it should ultimately be up to the players on what kind of monster they want to play as.

    That they shouldn’t have to be the type of monster that regularly kills people because the game says so.
    But it should be left as an option. Heck, one of the other games (Werewolf) has killing as basically still required, or at least a pacifist Werewolf would be considered odd.

    Leave a comment:


  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by zenten View Post
    See, to me the WoD is all about playing monsters.
    And it should ultimately be up to the players on what kind of monster they want to play as.

    That they shouldn’t have to be the type of monster that regularly kills people because the game says so.

    Leave a comment:


  • zenten
    replied
    See, to me the WoD is all about playing monsters.

    Leave a comment:


  • tasti man LH
    replied
    Originally posted by zenten View Post
    I was under the impression in Changeling that most redcaps still follow that tradition, although most don't use wool hats anymore.
    According to C20...no, it doesn't look like it.

    C20 p.100

    Named for the bright red caps they used to dip in the blood of their enemies, redcaps long ago gave up such quaint beginnings.
    Even then considering the implications about how "redcaps have to periodically kill people and/or draw blood from their enemies otherwise they die"...yeah I'd rather not saddle players with that. Especially since the byline with WoD is to movie away from the mandatory murder hobo-ing common to D&D.
    Last edited by tasti man LH; 04-03-2018, 06:02 PM.

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