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  • #46
    Originally posted by loomer View Post
    Australia has sacred sites other than Uluru.
    Blasphemy!

    Though it is odd they usually don't claim a place already claimed in another Gameline. Werewolf claimed Uluru since Caerns Places of Power.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      Blasphemy!

      Though it is odd they usually don't claim a place already claimed in another Gameline. Werewolf claimed Uluru since Caerns Places of Power.
      Bonus demerits for taking a place people aren't meant to go and having the example motley wander casually about in it.

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      • #48
        I don't suppose there is a Merfolk freehold in or around the Great Barrier Reef by any chance?


        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
          I don't suppose there is a Merfolk freehold in or around the Great Barrier Reef by any chance?
          Better - the Merfolk city of Hiath.Appeared in Blood Dimmed Tides.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by loomer View Post

            Bonus demerits for taking a place people aren't meant to go and having the example motley wander casually about in it.
            ‚ÄčThis is one of those reasons I've always been warry of using real world sacred sites as anything supernatural like caerns and such. (The possible exceptions being wellsprings of spiritual energy or places the barriers between worlds thin.) Too many cultural landmines that I might miss without some sort of skilled guide.


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #51
              Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

              ‚ÄčThis is one of those reasons I've always been warry of using real world sacred sites as anything supernatural like caerns and such. (The possible exceptions being wellsprings of spiritual energy or places the barriers between worlds thin.) Too many cultural landmines that I might miss without some sort of skilled guide.
              I wouldn't object quite as much if there'd been at least a brief mention - like, a single line would do it - about how people aren't meant to climb Uluru or go to certain places on and around it because of their role in the customary law and religion of the traditional owners. As it stands it's just 'hey, a cool place for the motley to go', and while a good ST will always do more research it still seems like a serious oversight. Doubly so with Uluru having just been made off limits to climbers by law, starting next year, with some pretty hefty penalties if you do it.

              EDIT:
              Like straight up, the customary law of both the traditional custodians and us whitefellas is now in agreement you don't walk on it without a damn good reason. That's pretty damn rare!

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              • #52
                Well to be fair they don't talk about climbing it but actually secretly going inside it, and Changelings are supposed to represent spirits, like the Nunnehi and Menehune they can take up residence in secret places without technically despoiling it like mortals since it is a place of spirits.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #53
                  Sure - all of which could have been addressed, but wasn't, in the space of a single line. Changelings also aren't dreaming in the Dreamtime sense spirits, and have mortal selves, so I wouldn't be so cocksure about 'nah, she'll be right'. A Pitjantjara woman going to the wrong places in and around Uluru is a breach of law, whether she's changeling or not, and that needs to be acknowledged in the text. That's without even asking the prickly question of initiation.

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                  • #54
                    I was under the Impression all Glades are essentially do not disturb by default. A lot of fae sights are places humans are not supposed to go. And we don't have Kiths for the changelings, if say we had Australian kiths one of the Changelings could even be a Rainbow Serpent themed Kith. And could even have Uluru as a Totem. I mean it would be told to stay off the grass if you are supposed to be a child of the gods who dwell there and even have the place as your totem...


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      I was under the Impression all Glades are essentially do not disturb by default. A lot of fae sights are places humans are not supposed to go. And we don't have Kiths for the changelings, if say we had Australian kiths one of the Changelings could even be a Rainbow Serpent themed Kith. And could even have Uluru as a Totem. I mean it would be told to stay off the grass if you are supposed to be a child of the gods who dwell there and even have the place as your totem...
                      Having the Rainbow serpent as your kith is a bit much and would also be hard to nail down since ol' Snakey has literally dozens of various incarnations and roles, and Uluru... Well, it isn't a totem. It isn't a deity or specific individual spirit in any sense at all, so that would be an enormous misstep.

                      As for Glades, no - they're plenty disturbed in this book. None of the four featured are free of significant human or changeling influence; only one is in a place where people don't regularly visit, in fact, though even it has visitors each summer and a strong changeling presence. They're very much 'these are examples, and also places your motley can go visit!' in presentation and style.

                      I'm not saying 'don't use sacred sites people aren't meant to go, period'. I'm saying at least acknowledge that element.

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                      • #56
                        But Nunnehi and Menehune have Rocks and Volcanoes as Totems. And that is the point there are a bunch of different names for the Rainbow Serpent, and they don't even agree if there is one or many of them, so it would be very fitting to be a kith. Eshu is a god and also a kith after all.

                        Glades by default seem to be sacred places, as is often the case with Faery Glades they are forbidden or even hidden from humans. The Wonder Caves are also guarded, And like Uluru these Glades have pocket realms within the dreaming, having 5 dots in size makes them essentially their own towns or forests. I really don't think mortals see these changeling even entering or on Uluru, it would be weird for a random group of five people to just out of nowhere claim a heritage site. They, like many changeling and werewolves, are claiming the Glade away from human eyes.

                        I see Freeholds as the more public Fae places hidden in plain sight. I see Glades as the unspoiled sacred places, some possibly never disturbed by man.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          But Nunnehi and Menehune have Rocks and Volcanoes as Totems. And that is the point there are a bunch of different names for the Rainbow Serpent, and they don't even agree if there is one or many of them, so it would be very fitting to be a kith. Eshu is a god and also a kith after all.
                          The core issue with the Rainbow Serpent as a kith is that it's a being of immensity, far in excess of Eshu. It's equivalent to making kiths based on Atum, El, or Marduk. And while Nunnehi and Menehune have such totems, they have zero relationship to the Australian Dreaming or to the way landmarks like Uluru are represented in it. Uluru as a totem just doesn't make sense, and Uluru as the totem of a universal spirit-kith would be incredibly stupid since Uluru has literally zero significance (other than a generalized symbol of indigenous causes) in the religious practices, myths, and customary laws of the vast majority of Indigenous Australian peoples.

                          Glades by default seem to be sacred places, as is often the case with Faery Glades they are forbidden or even hidden from humans. The Wonder Caves are also guarded, And like Uluru these Glades have pocket realms within the dreaming, having 5 dots in size makes them essentially their own towns or forests. I really don't think mortals see these changeling even entering or on Uluru, it would be weird for a random group of five people to just out of nowhere claim a heritage site. They, like many changeling and werewolves, are claiming the Glade away from human eyes.

                          I see Freeholds as the more public Fae places hidden in plain sight. I see Glades as the unspoiled sacred places, some possibly never disturbed by man.
                          All Glades in the book are disturbed by man - and yes, Changelings count as man. One of them exists solely because of man, one is a town built by man, two are major tourist sites. The issue also isn't 'but mortals might see!' - the issue is it's a sacred place with strict taboos around , and random people trotting through it is no bueno in and of itself regardless of whether someone sees. Disregarding that is disrespectful to the religion, to the site, and to the people. One single line would remedy the total lack of regard shown. And while yes, it's technically the pocket realm, the taboo should still map and should in fact be amplified because glades are, and I quote, shaped '...according to the... dreams associated with each specific location'. The Dreams of Uluru are Dreaming stories, and those stories have laws and rules built into them from the bedrock up.

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                          • #58
                            The Eshu are not supposed to be Eshu though, and its arguable saying Marduk is more numinous and all encompassing then a God like Elegba. I'm not even saying the that one of the Changelings is even a Rainbow Serpent Kith but I am saying it would be appropriate. You could even have Ra themed Kiths, but they wouldn't necessarily be Ra though, they could be Falcons aspected like Ra, or even one of the Solar Scarab Beetles, or a Banu Bird. Thus a Rainbow Serpent wouldn't be Ngalyod or Borlung or any of the Rainbow Serpents of myth, they would be each aspects of them.

                            And that is not how Totems work in Changeling. You are thinking of Tribal Totems, Changeling totems are all individual totems which allow you to access the spirit world and are actual aspects of the world, hence why many Changelings have totems like Maize, or Stone. And it would be very appropriate for someone chosen by the very stone of Uluru to be allowed within.

                            And yes I agree it couldn't hurt to mention the sacredness and Taboo around Uluru but my assumption was most Glades are sacred an not to be despoiled. The Wonder caves are protected by Bantu, that doesn't mean families live inside the caves, though it makes sense for changelings to because they are spirits. You don't chase things like say the Rainbow Serpent from Uluru, you don't chase ants or birds from Uluru. Nunnehi as mentioned often dwell in sacred places. Same with Hsien. Same with Menehune, and even Kithain as they too have Glades as well as Freeholds.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              The Eshu are not supposed to be Eshu though, and its arguable saying Marduk is more numinous and all encompassing then a God like Elegba. I'm not even saying the that one of the Changelings is even a Rainbow Serpent Kith but I am saying it would be appropriate. You could even have Ra themed Kiths, but they wouldn't necessarily be Ra though, they could be Falcons aspected like Ra, or even one of the Solar Scarab Beetles, or a Banu Bird. Thus a Rainbow Serpent wouldn't be Ngalyod or Borlung or any of the Rainbow Serpents of myth, they would be each aspects of them.
                              A creator god is necessarily of a greater magnitude than gods of specific things. You're right that they don't have to be Rainbow Serpent itself, but nonetheless I don't think they're an appropriate basis for a kith. A kith that draws inspiration from them, sure - a kith that is aspects of them, not so much.

                              And that is not how Totems work in Changeling. You are thinking of Tribal Totems, Changeling totems are all individual totems which allow you to access the spirit world and are actual aspects of the world, hence why many Changelings have totems like Maize, or Stone. And it would be very appropriate for someone chosen by the very stone of Uluru to be allowed within.
                              No, I'm disagreeing on the basis that it has no relationship to how the Australian Dreaming works. Nunnehi totems have no relationship to the Australian Dreaming and the Dreaming stories or the way they work. It's a different spiritual landscape.

                              And yes I agree it couldn't hurt to mention the sacredness and Taboo around Uluru but my assumption was most Glades are sacred an not to be despoiled. The Wonder caves are protected by Bantu, that doesn't mean families live inside the caves, though it makes sense for changelings to because they are spirits. You don't chase things like say the Rainbow Serpent from Uluru, you don't chase ants or birds from Uluru. Nunnehi as mentioned often dwell in sacred places. Same with Hsien. Same with Menehune, and even Kithain as they too have Glades as well as Freeholds.
                              Most glades are sacred and not to be despoiled. So why is Uluru set up to be despoiled by the book? And again - Nunnehi, Hsien, Menehune all have zero relationship with, or bearing on, the Australian Dreaming.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by loomer View Post

                                A creator god is necessarily of a greater magnitude than gods of specific things. You're right that they don't have to be Rainbow Serpent itself, but nonetheless I don't think they're an appropriate basis for a kith. A kith that draws inspiration from them, sure - a kith that is aspects of them, not so much.
                                Aspect doesn't connote scope... so I don't see anything but semantic differences between "drawing inspiration from" and is some small part of.

                                No, I'm disagreeing on the basis that it has no relationship to how the Australian Dreaming works. Nunnehi totems have no relationship to the Australian Dreaming and the Dreaming stories or the way they work. It's a different spiritual landscape.
                                The World of Darkness never just copy and pastes real mythologies, there is always some layer of abstraction for the sake of the fact that it would be less insulting to do so. It is for this reason Malcom Sheppard didn't just copy and past Buddhism when he handled Dragons of the East, but was inspired by it. It is the same with Changeling. Or do you really think that is how Native American and Hawaiian stories work that Spirits, gods and mythical creatures have totems themselves. That is like a ghost dying and becoming a ghost, of course that is not how the original stories went. But original stories also don't state Pugwis are born into a human's body and suffer banality. This is Changeling. Before they became Changelings these beings would have been spirits and gods. Now they are bound to human bodies and souls so they have to come up with a new system for how their powers work, so of course using natural totems are not how the Dreamtime stories worked, the sundering and the shattering, and banality and all that is a work of fiction but is true in this setting and thus would need to be taken into account. You would be playing an evolution of a myth, not the original mythic creature unchanged by time. Leprechauns and Selkies aren't supposed to be faeries born into human bodies reincarnating over time but that is how the game works. And how Animistic Changelings are portrayed is that they need the help of natural spirits, since they are no longer pure spirits themselves, to help in crossing to the spirit world. And unlike humans they usually take non-animal totems.


                                Most glades are sacred and not to be despoiled. So why is Uluru set up to be despoiled by the book? And again - Nunnehi, Hsien, Menehune all have zero relationship with, or bearing on, the Australian Dreaming.
                                The Changelings in stewardship of Uluru currently were chosen by the Dreaming itself, by the site itself. It would only be despoiled if you handled it wrong in play. I'm arguing that some changelings can be viewed more as beings of the spirit world rather then beings of the human. If anything the Sidhe Duchess of Anne Springs is supposed to represent the threat of despoiling, as she wants to take Uluru by force.

                                It's not like they have Enchanted humans having orgies and keggars with Satyrs. They don't even talk about people climbing Uluru or anything, just entering a portal into Uluru (which actually would probably count as even more of a sacred spot then the physical shell of the site).

                                Question should the Chimeracal spirits also not be allowed on Uluru? Or as I mentioned the ants or birds?

                                I'm saying its not clear cut to judge mythical creatures of hypothetical undefined extraction, as we don't have kiths given and we aren't even statting up the Dreamtime or local Kiths of Australia yet, as you would mortal men.


                                It is a time for great deeds!

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