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  • #61
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

    Aspect doesn't connote scope... so I don't see anything but semantic differences between "drawing inspiration from" and is some small part of.
    The distinction is that an aspect would be specifically a part of the divinity, not merely an aligned spiritual being.

    The World of Darkness never just copy and pastes real mythologies, there is always some layer of abstraction for the sake of the fact that it would be less insulting to do so. It is for this reason Malcom Sheppard didn't just copy and past Buddhism when he handled Dragons of the East, but was inspired by it. It is the same with Changeling. Or do you really think that is how Native American and Hawaiian stories work that Spirits, gods and mythical creatures have totems themselves. That is like a ghost dying and becoming a ghost, of course that is not how the original stories went. But original stories also don't state Pugwis are born into a human's body and suffer banality. This is Changeling. Before they became Changelings these beings would have been spirits and gods. Now they are bound to human bodies and souls so they have to come up with a new system for how their powers work, so of course using natural totems are not how the Dreamtime stories worked, the sundering and the shattering, and banality and all that is a work of fiction but is true in this setting and thus would need to be taken into account. You would be playing an evolution of a myth, not the original mythic creature unchanged by time. Leprechauns and Selkies aren't supposed to be faeries born into human bodies reincarnating over time but that is how the game works. And how Animistic Changelings are portrayed is that they need the help of natural spirits, since they are no longer pure spirits themselves, to help in crossing to the spirit world. And unlike humans they usually take non-animal totems.
    My point is this: The Australian Dreaming is its own distinct spiritual landscape. None of this addresses that basic issue. The failure to recognize this distinction and the attempt to map Nunnehi et al to a completely different set of spiritual entities, ways, and beings is an unsatisfying one because it robs the Dreaming of being the Dreaming.

    The Changelings in stewardship of Uluru currently were chosen by the Dreaming itself, by the site itself. It would only be despoiled if you handled it wrong in play. I'm arguing that some changelings can be viewed more as beings of the spirit world rather then beings of the human. If anything the Sidhe Duchess of Anne Springs is supposed to represent the threat of despoiling, as she wants to take Uluru by force.
    The Sidhe Duchess of Alice Springs is a clear native title allegory. Further, there is no indication in the book that Mala and her motley were chosen - just that she found it.She is also, very decidedly, a mortal woman of Pitjantjara descent and thus governed by customary law.

    It's not like they have Enchanted humans having orgies and keggars with Satyrs. They don't even talk about people climbing Uluru or anything, just entering a portal into Uluru (which actually would probably count as even more of a sacred spot then the physical shell of the site).
    The mere presence of a person in the wrong place is in violation of the Law. That alone is despoiling - it doesn't need to be an orgy or a kegger. Simply being in the wrong place violates the Law.

    Question should the Chimeracal spirits also not be allowed on Uluru? Or as I mentioned the ants or birds?
    Chimerical spirits that are from other places with no relation to the spirits residing in Uluru would be unwelcome, yeah.

    I'm saying its not clear cut to judge mythical creatures of hypothetical undefined extraction, as we don't have kiths given and we aren't even statting up the Dreamtime or local Kiths of Australia yet, as you would mortal men.
    Changelings are half mortal, half-spirit. They are thus mortal. They exist as mortals. One is explicitly Pitjantjara, and thus governed by Pitjantjara law. You cannot ignore the Law simply because they're Changelings, and using it as justification to not even mention the Law is skuzzy.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by loomer View Post
      Changelings are half mortal, half-spirit. They are thus mortal. They exist as mortals.
      I just want to comment on this one statement, changelings are half mortal, but they’re also half fae. They’re what’s become of the old gods. Their powers have weakened. They don’t remember most of what they need to know. But they’re still the the ones responsible for maintaining the Dreaming and the caretakers of the spiritual and humanity. Places of power for the gods are the places of changelings because changelings *are* the gods, or what’s left of them.

      Changelings do have to worry about the concerns of their mortal half, but the concerns of their immortal half are just as important. In the World of Darkness, the world of mortals is breaking down *because* changelings haven’t done an adequate job maintaining the world of fae.


      Charlie Cantrell
      Onyx Path Freelancer
      Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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      • #63
        Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

        I just want to comment on this one statement, changelings are half mortal, but they’re also half fae. They’re what’s become of the old gods. Their powers have weakened. They don’t remember most of what they need to know. But they’re still the the ones responsible for maintaining the Dreaming and the caretakers of the spiritual and humanity. Places of power for the gods are the places of changelings because changelings *are* the gods, or what’s left of them.

        Changelings do have to worry about the concerns of their mortal half, but the concerns of their immortal half are just as important. In the World of Darkness, the world of mortals is breaking down *because* changelings haven’t done an adequate job maintaining the world of fae.
        Sure. But they're still mortals, so their mortal halves are still subject to taboo and Law. It may be modified in its application, but it can't be shrugged off as 'but they're spirits'. Also, it seems like a bold claim to state unequivocally that the WoD is so screwed up because changelings did a bad job. Is that personal opinion, or the official line that I missed somewhere?

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        • #64
          In Changeling: The Dreaming, yeah, it’s absolutely true. It’s all right there in C20’s first chapter. The fae are the keepers of the Dreaming, but they got so wrapped up in their own petty conflicts, they broke the world. Now they’re the only ones with any hope of fixing it, but they’ve lost so much knowledge and power it’s almost impossible.

          That’s not true in, say, Werewolf: The Apocalypse where the world is falling apart because werewolves murdered everything that could save the world or in Vampire: The Masquerade where the world is falling apart because vampires exist or in Mage: The Ascension where the Traditions and Technocracy dug in so deeply to their ideological war they missed how much the Nephandi spread. The fundamental truths in one game line aren’t nessecarily true in other game lines.

          But yeah, Arts and Realms plus the Mists mean changelings can attend to fae business right plain sight of mortals with humanity being none the wiser. Mortal taboo and law are easy enough for changelings to circumvent with a little Glamour when the need arises.


          Charlie Cantrell
          Onyx Path Freelancer
          Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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          • #65
            Circumventing it by making mortals not see doesn't avoid it being an issue in the first place, Charlie. The Law remains the Law whether you break it in sight of someone else or not.

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            • #66
              I think changelings would argue mortal law doesn’t apply to them when they’re dealing with fae business. They have mortal lives in addition to their immortal ones, hence the need to hide themselves from prying mortal eyes so their mortal lives aren’t impacted, but that doesn’t make their status as fae and their tasks for the Dreaming any less valid or necessary.


              Charlie Cantrell
              Onyx Path Freelancer
              Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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              • #67
                I think the argument that the Law around a sacred site - and note that I use Law to refer to the traditional customary law of the traditional custodians of the land there, which should inform the local dreaming in a big way - doesn't apply is silly. These Laws are part of the actual, real Dreaming of the site.

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                • #68
                  I feel like you're talking around each other because you're using the same words to refer to different stuff.

                  I'm pretty sure what Loomer is trying to say is "this section is offensive to me as someone who actually knows about Australian native religious practices, because it's ignorant about what those practices actually are and is just throwing in generic American assumptions about what's appropriate behavior in a sacred place, because the author didn't take the trouble of finding out what the appropriate behavior actually is."

                  PookaKnight is basically saying "well, changelings probably feel differently," which isn't really addressing his objection, because his grievance is that the writers have done wrong, not that the fairies have.


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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Rand Brittain View Post
                    I feel like you're talking around each other because you're using the same words to refer to different stuff.

                    I'm pretty sure what Loomer is trying to say is "this section is offensive to me as someone who actually knows about Australian native religious practices, because it's ignorant about what those practices actually are and is just throwing in generic American assumptions about what's appropriate behavior in a sacred place, because the author didn't take the trouble of finding out what the appropriate behavior actually is."

                    PookaKnight is basically saying "well, changelings probably feel differently," which isn't really addressing his objection, because his grievance is that the writers have done wrong, not that the fairies have.
                    Pretty much. I mean, I'd still rather see somewhere other than Uluru (just calling it 'Australia's Dreaming made manifest' is kind of fucked, to be blunt, and if PK wants to know why I'm happy to explain) since we have many other places and Uluru is done to death, but I'd be much happier with the section if it just acknowledged that it isn't a place to take lightly. It even writes itself as a concept, if you must have Uluru and a motley poking about willy-nilly in it - why do monsters keep appearing and why does the local changeling dreaming seem fucked? Because people keep violating the long-held taboos about the site, on top of all the fucked up things us whitefellas have done. Treating the site with the respect it's due actually enhances its story possibilities.

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                    • #70
                      I can't speak about things I didn't write. I can only address the assumptions of the fictional setting — which takes inspiration form, but is not beholden to, real world myths.

                      Edit to add: My beef isn't that loomer objects to something in the book. It's the statement that changelings are mortal. They're not. In Changeling: The Dreaming, they're all that's left of the fae, the spirits, or the gods. The domain of the gods *is* the domain of changelings, even if they can't remember how it works anymore.
                      Last edited by PookaKnight; 04-15-2018, 12:07 PM.


                      Charlie Cantrell
                      Onyx Path Freelancer
                      Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
                        I can't speak about things I didn't write. I can only address the assumptions of the fictional setting — which takes inspiration form, but is not beholden to, real world myths.
                        Of course, to quote the work itself, "As the dream-stuff seeps into the surrounding area, it shapes itself according to the landscape and the dreams associated witheach specific location." The dreams of Uluru must surely include the Dreaming - in the proper sense, that of the broad usage to refer to Indigenous Australian customary law and religious practice which endures to this day including among the Pitjantjara people - and its ways. The assumptions of the fictional setting are not beholden to real world 'myths' like the Dreaming, but to set a place to visit in the middle of a place governed by strict Law without so much as a mention isn't great.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by loomer View Post
                          One single line would remedy the total lack of regard shown.
                          ...you consider dropping said line in the errata thread so they could take notice and add it in?

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                          • #73
                            But we are pointing out something you clearly disagree with, Changelings aren't as mortal as you argue. Hell Hsien even literally means Immortal, they are Shen which means god...


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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                              Oooh boy...I know someday I'll have to take a look into the Asian WoD stuff. But from what I hear, they treat it to the point of making Asia this odd place where the rest of the World of Darkness just doesn't want to interact with because it's so WEIRD and ALIEN and DANGEROUS...and I have no idea why they made it that way.

                              And I just get amused how even nu-WW, with ALL of their controversial decisions and statements, even they are hesitant at the idea of doing a theoretical Kindred of the East 5th edition.

                              I'm just going to keep up hope that a Book of Gallain (bare minimum: I'm in the camp that would prefer the Nunnehi, Menehune, and Hsien get their own standalone books) arrives to give them the proper write-up and expansions they deserve.



                              ...even though the Hsien's method of gaining Glamour is completely different from the Nunnehi's and the Menehune's way...?

                              Although with the idea of Kithain in Japan, that I can buy. Japan has had a history of "borrowing" from other cultures and them remaking it in their own way. For example, the entire anime industry was based around admiration in the original Disney cartoons. And some of the Kithain I could see developing into the form of known Japanese yokai. So that's not too bad.
                              The Asian Themed White Wolf stuff suffers from a bad case of orientalism. It's often rather good taken in itself, but when integrated in the global setting, we get products that fetishize and exoticize Asia. The notion that Asia and asian supernatural world are fundamentally different from the rest of the world is a very unhealthy idea. I don't think it was done with bad intentions, more like it was an unfortunate consequence of the writers, editors and others' backgrounds.

                              Still, it is problematic and should be acknowledged and corrected. That is not to say that Hsien and Wan-Kuei shouldn't exist, just that they should be reframed in a less problematic context. The Hengeyokai actually manage this quite well. Kitsunes for example are a specifically asian type of Fera, but they don't feel like completely alien creatures, living in a completely different world. They're clearly different from the Garou, but still their natures, mythologies and cosmologies share commonalities. Or else, they should not be associated to their current Western equivalents. There is no reason for the Hsien to be asian equivalents of Changelings, all it does is play (intentionally or not, I don't know) on the real world 'mysterious asian' and 'asians are other' stereotypes. They have absolutely nothing in common, so why aren't they presented as their own independent thing?

                              ​As for the Nunnehi and Menehune, they were almost treated like the Kitsune were... except for some stereotypes that tend to pop up when settlers write about indigenous people. I mean, the writers found a way to insert a pseudo blood quantum right in the Nunnehi write-up! Sensitivity reading could really help avoid that kind of things. I mean if White Wolf or the Onyx Path can use bribes of indigenous culture to make money, it's more than fair to pay an indigenous person to make sure it's done decently.


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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by loomer View Post

                                Better - the Merfolk city of Hiath.Appeared in Blood Dimmed Tides.
                                Are they still aloof and isolated or does this write-up integrate them more with the rest of Kithain society?


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