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  • #76
    Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

    ...you consider dropping said line in the errata thread so they could take notice and add it in?
    Unfortunately the Errata thread is only for typos, dropped words, etc. This is what they'd call a stylistic choice, so my only hope is they see it in here and go 'oh, easy fix!' Given that the response from one of the writers has been largely to argue that 'nah, changelings don't count and they can hide themselves from mortal eyes so it's all good', not too hopeful.

    Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post
    I can't speak about things I didn't write. I can only address the assumptions of the fictional setting — which takes inspiration form, but is not beholden to, real world myths.

    Edit to add: My beef isn't that loomer objects to something in the book. It's the statement that changelings are mortal. They're not. In Changeling: The Dreaming, they're all that's left of the fae, the spirits, or the gods. The domain of the gods *is* the domain of changelings, even if they can't remember how it works anymore.
    Changelings profoundly are mortal. Yes, they're also fairies - but last I checked ignoring the 'by the way I'm also a human who needs to eat, sleep, and exist' thing was a one way ticket to bedlam. You may also be confused by my use of the word mortal to think I mean 'mundane' - I do not. I mean specifically that they have a human aspect that must be considered in relation to them, because, well, it's pretty integral to their entire concept. They're changelings, they're humans with a fae soul - but they're also still humans. Their human identities matter both in terms of how they pass in mortal society and how they interpret their existence as dual-beings. In this case, your argument basically boils down to 'sure, we made Mala a Pitjantjara woman, but her changeling identity automatically overrules it when interacting with the sacred sites of her people'.

    I will now lay out my precise objection:

    1. Uluru is overdone and nowhere near as significant as non-Australian voices tend to treat it as. Treating it as 'the Australian dreaming made manifest' is frankly wrong. It has zero significance to 99.9% of Australian Dreaming stories, ways, and customs, and has only attained its greater significance because us whitefellas thought it looked neat and the Pitjantjara leveraged that into a remarkable achievement of getting recognition for their sacred sites. Even then, it is no more significant to the Colonist 'dream' than the Blue Mountains, Eureka, the Red Centre itself, or the Great Barrier Reef. It is, frankly, lazy to grab Uluru yet again.

    2. Uluru is a sacred site subject to strict Law. Those Laws are Dreaming Laws - customs, taboos, and stories stretching back thousands to tens of thousands of years. They should, logically, have a reflection on the changeling dreaming in Australia. The fact that the issue of climbing in and around Uluru has been hotly debated for literal decades now should also reinforce that reflection, even if it takes it in a different direction. It is lazy and disrespectful to set a glade for motleys to visit in Uluru without a single line mentioning that the place is not somewhere to casually wander through.

    3. Spiritual entities are also subject to Law, not exempt from it. Thus, the argument that 'yeah but, they're actually fairies!' holds no water with me. They're actually fairies - great. They still have to respect Law, or the dreaming should be biting them in the ass for refusing to do so. This is doubly the case when the nominated protector of the site has been written as a Pitjantjara woman, who is governed by even stricter rules. Again, if this was a plot point - great. No mention at all - bad.


    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    But we are pointing out something you clearly disagree with, Changelings aren't as mortal as you argue. Hell Hsien even literally means Immortal, they are Shen which means god...
    And Hsien aren't the same as regular changelings, so using them to bolster the argument is misleading.

    Originally posted by Anteros View Post

    Are they still aloof and isolated or does this write-up integrate them more with the rest of Kithain society?
    The one in BDT? Still aloof, I believe. It's been a while.

    Comment


    • #77
      To restate the objection slightly differently, asserting that 'nah, fae can attend to fae business without regard to mere mortal custom' while setting them in Uluru is saying that the Dreaming has no influence over the Australian changeling dreaming. It's essentially erasing the legacy of the 50,0000 - 80,000 years of continual inhabitation of this continent, and it does so in a way that's not only lazy but also ignorant of what the Dreaming actually is. It casts all changelings, including Mala the Pitjantjara woman, as essentially colonial and others the Dreaming proper and its stories as being 'less than' changelings.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by loomer View Post
        Unfortunately the Errata thread is only for typos, dropped words, etc.
        No it isn't.

        I know C20 errata had some mechanical stuff in it that ended up getting fixed in the final release. Unless if one of the writers specifically tell you not to, I'd say go ahead and put it in anyways.

        You'll never know until you ask.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

          No it isn't.

          I know C20 errata had some mechanical stuff in it that ended up getting fixed in the final release. Unless if one of the writers specifically tell you not to, I'd say go ahead and put it in anyways.

          You'll never know until you ask.
          True, can't hurt to mention there.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by loomer View Post
            so my only hope is they see it in here and go 'oh, easy fix!'
            Nothing outside of the errata thread gets considered. If you’re pinning your hopes on this thread, you’re guaranteed to be disappointed.

            Given that the response from one of the writers has been largely to argue that 'nah, changelings don't count and they can hide themselves from mortal eyes so it's all good', not too hopeful.
            I didn’t write the section you’re complaining about. Not once in this thread have I addressed the section you’re complaining about because *I didn’t write it*. My sole point here is that changelings are supernatural creatures, not mortals. Mocking me about it is uncalled for.


            Charlie Cantrell
            Onyx Path Freelancer
            Changeling: The Dreaming 20th Anniversary Edition, Conquering Heroes, Book of Freeholds, Guide to the Night, C20 Players Guide

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            • #81
              Originally posted by PookaKnight View Post

              Nothing outside of the errata thread gets considered. If you’re pinning your hopes on this thread, you’re guaranteed to be disappointed.



              I didn’t write the section you’re complaining about. Not once in this thread have I addressed the section you’re complaining about because *I didn’t write it*. My sole point here is that changelings are supernatural creatures, not mortals. Mocking me about it is uncalled for.
              The entire context of what you've decided to engage with is in relation to Uluru, and I'm not mocking you. You literally said it was fine because they can hide themselves from mortal eyes.

              Comment


              • #82
                I'm rather confused by Loomer's fluctuation between Uluru is too sacred and Uluru is nothing important what so ever. I mean I mentioned Uluru has already been used and claimed by Werewolf ages ago, but I don't have that much of a disdain for them using it her. Its a small ass book they don't have a lot of room and they just did a few pages on it, I think you are exaggerating any sort of emphasis on it.

                But it is a helluva interesting site being the largest solid rock on the surface of the world, and a recognized sacred spiritual site. Its not wrong to want to address it, even if it means rebooting the local history in the World of Darkness for Changeling instead of werewolf.


                But you said yourself its okay if native spirits and animals inhabit Uluru... but if the spirits go through the changingway ritual it is not alright. So even if you are a changeling who say was in charge of guarding the site since before mankind arrived in Australia, you loose all claim to that after becoming a changeling...

                And this is all hypothetical because... We do not have a detailed setting of Australia in the Dreaming or the local Changelings... so I don't know where you are getting all these claims to how Australia's Dreaming specifically works when they never detailed it...


                It is a time for great deeds!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  I'm rather confused by Loomer's fluctuation between Uluru is too sacred and Uluru is nothing important what so ever.
                  You're mischaracterizing what I'm saying. Uluru is an important site for the Pitjantjara people. It is sacred. This does not mean it has any importance whatsoever in the Dreaming stories and ways of the many, many other Indigenous cultural groups. It's like, say, the Temple Mount. Big deal in Abrahamic faiths, but not important to Shinto. It has also attained an exaggerated importance in outsider views, in the same way that people outside of France might think 'Eiffel Tower' but the average Frenchman doesn't see nor particularly give two shits about it except in some vague 'oh yeah, we have that and it's pretty cool' sense.

                  Is that clearer?

                  I mean I mentioned Uluru has already been used and claimed by Werewolf ages ago, but I don't have that much of a disdain for them using it her. Its a small ass book they don't have a lot of room and they just did a few pages on it, I think you are exaggerating any sort of emphasis on it.
                  I don't exaggerate any emphasis. I recognize it's only a few pages - that isn't my objection.

                  But it is a helluva interesting site being the largest solid rock on the surface of the world, and a recognized sacred spiritual site. Its not wrong to want to address it, even if it means rebooting the local history in the World of Darkness for Changeling instead of werewolf.
                  Sure - but there are other interesting places that haven't been done to death, and even if Uluru remains the pick, recognizing the customary laws governing it is part of that whole 'recognized sacred spiritual site'.


                  But you said yourself its okay if native spirits and animals inhabit Uluru... but if the spirits go through the changingway ritual it is not alright. So even if you are a changeling who say was in charge of guarding the site since before mankind arrived in Australia, you loose all claim to that after becoming a changeling...
                  Not what I said. I said, and I repeat, that if native spirits and animals inhabit Uluru in accordance with Law then it is okay - because it's in accordance with Law. If a Changeling inhabits it in accordance with Law then it is okay. The issue is that the Law is ignored.

                  And this is all hypothetical because... We do not have a detailed setting of Australia in the Dreaming or the local Changelings... so I don't know where you are getting all these claims to how Australia's Dreaming specifically works when they never detailed it...
                  When I talk about Australia's Dreaming, using the capital, I am specifically referring to what you may know as the 'Dreamtime'. It's a term used to refer to Indigenous Australian spirituality, custom, and belief, and to the overlying everywhen spiritual world in which the stories that inform us of those beliefs and customs play out. I use small-d dreaming or 'changeling dreaming' to refer to the game's dreaming. But here's why I suggest that the Dreaming should significantly impact the dreaming in Australia: the dreaming responds to human beliefs and customs and while not controlled by is definitely influenced and shaped by them, and the Dreaming is a very old set of beliefs and customs. It is a logical inference that the Dreaming should impact the changeling dreaming of Australia. Allow me to quote C20.

                  "The Dreaming is a realm created by the creativity, fantasies, and revelries of humanity..." "The Near Dreaming responds to the influence of mortals in the area as well..."

                  Mortal belief shapes the changeling dreaming. The Dreaming is a very strong, very well-established set of beliefs and practices that are innately tied to the landscapes around them. It would be very odd then if the Dreaming did not impact on the dreaming, no?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    You still don't know how the setting interprets the Dreamtime at all. Like flat out it hasn't been covered so you are jumping to conclusions. We only have rules on how the Umbra of the Outback works.

                    Of course nothing is going to be universally recognized by all the aboriginal peoples they are not one group but many. Its not unnatural to still want to use one of the most impressive example of natural beauty on the continent. And Done to death? Really I count only one other group covering Uluru. The barrier reef has also already been covered, by changeling no less so they wouldn't already use it.

                    And your arguments on "Law" are too ambiguous. Is it okay for flies or rodents native to the area because you can't really stop them from inhabiting open nature. Is it forbidden to have the animistic spirits of the area to inhabit their own physical and umbral landscape? What about the very likely chance of an Inanimae (probably godlike) of Uluru inhabiting it? Are you going to say hey Uluru get off of yourself? I am not convinced with the info we have at hand you are qualified to make unequivocal statements. I think you would need book on the actual setting to actually be angry at, because as it stands this one is too ambiguous. Say there is a spirit like a chimera or even a Kith based on Kumiya the snake that in legends inhabited the rocks, would you say get off Uluru? I don't think so. So if you are Kumiya then you have every right to be there. Just like if you are an incarnation of Ratatoskr you have a right to climb Yggdrasil without profaning it.

                    It really seems you are getting offended for others. Its one thing if they were going out of their way to disrespect the site in writing but they aren't. And the only one who specifically is a changeling derived from a foreign spirit (a Sidhe Aussie) is already posited as an obvious problem.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      You still don't know how the setting interprets the Dreamtime at all. Like flat out it hasn't been covered so you are jumping to conclusions. We only have rules on how the Umbra of the Outback works.
                      Sure. But I'm jumping to conclusions based on the underlying logic that the dreaming is influenced by human belief.

                      Of course nothing is going to be universally recognized by all the aboriginal peoples they are not one group but many. Its not unnatural to still want to use one of the most impressive example of natural beauty on the continent. And Done to death? Really I count only one other group covering Uluru. The barrier reef has also already been covered, by changeling no less so they wouldn't already use it.
                      Uluru was also used in Shattered Dreams. What's more, it's used in a ton of other media. We have other places.

                      And your arguments on "Law" are too ambiguous. Is it okay for flies or rodents native to the area because you can't really stop them from inhabiting open nature.
                      Flies and rodents are governed by different Law to humans. This is not complex.

                      Is it forbidden to have the animistic spirits of the area to inhabit their own physical and umbral landscape?
                      Nope. They would be inhabiting it in accordance with Law. This is not complex. If, however, they break the Law by going to the wrong places at the wrong times, then yes, that is forbidden. Also not complex. Are you not familiar with Dreaming stories?

                      What about the very likely chance of an Inanimae (probably godlike) of Uluru inhabiting it? Are you going to say hey Uluru get off of yourself?
                      Uluru would make for a very poor inanimae. But if it were, obviously not, because being Uluru would render it rather distinct from other kinds of spirits.

                      I am not convinced with the info we have at hand you are qualified to make unequivocal statements.
                      A lack of information on the canonical setting does not mean we should refrain from making suggestions like 'yo, at least recognize the customs!'

                      I think you would need book on the actual setting to actually be angry at, because as it stands this one is too ambiguous. Say there is a spirit like a chimera or even a Kith based on Kumiya the snake that in legends inhabited the rocks, would you say get off Uluru? I don't think so. So if you are Kumiya then you have every right to be there. Just like if you are an incarnation of Ratatoskr you have a right to climb Yggdrasil without profaning it.
                      Of course, we don't have that setting, so all we can do is make reasonable inferences. As there are no known kiths that derive from Indigenous spirits, we can only assume that the Changelings involved aren't. Oh, and by the way - it would absolutely be proper to say 'get out of that cave' if Kumiya the snake went into the wrong place, because spirits are still subject to Law. Your premise here is that all changelings who will go there will be of some undefined and mysterious kith that will always act in accordance with law - something that is, itself, not in evidence.

                      It really seems you are getting offended for others. Its one thing if they were going out of their way to disrespect the site in writing but they aren't. And the only one who specifically is a changeling derived from a foreign spirit (a Sidhe Aussie) is already posited as an obvious problem.
                      I'm offended for myself, but thanks. The problem with the Sidhe is, as previously noted, more of a native title allegory than anything. As for whether they went out of their way or not, all they need to do to remedy the issue is put a small note in! It's that easy a fix to correct it, whether it was intentional or not.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by loomer View Post

                        Sure. But I'm jumping to conclusions based on the underlying logic that the dreaming is influenced by human belief.



                        Uluru was also used in Shattered Dreams. What's more, it's used in a ton of other media. We have other places.



                        Flies and rodents are governed by different Law to humans. This is not complex.



                        Nope. They would be inhabiting it in accordance with Law. This is not complex. If, however, they break the Law by going to the wrong places at the wrong times, then yes, that is forbidden. Also not complex. Are you not familiar with Dreaming stories?



                        Uluru would make for a very poor inanimae. But if it were, obviously not, because being Uluru would render it rather distinct from other kinds of spirits.



                        A lack of information on the canonical setting does not mean we should refrain from making suggestions like 'yo, at least recognize the customs!'



                        Of course, we don't have that setting, so all we can do is make reasonable inferences. As there are no known kiths that derive from Indigenous spirits, we can only assume that the Changelings involved aren't. Oh, and by the way - it would absolutely be proper to say 'get out of that cave' if Kumiya the snake went into the wrong place, because spirits are still subject to Law. Your premise here is that all changelings who will go there will be of some undefined and mysterious kith that will always act in accordance with law - something that is, itself, not in evidence.



                        I'm offended for myself, but thanks. The problem with the Sidhe is, as previously noted, more of a native title allegory than anything. As for whether they went out of their way or not, all they need to do to remedy the issue is put a small note in! It's that easy a fix to correct it, whether it was intentional or not.

                        So I pretty much agree with all of loomers points.....though with possibly a little less gusto as I'm more of a 'can't we all get along type'.

                        I also would have liked if they'd picked some other site than Uluru, theres a whole bunch of Quinkin lore in Cape York that would be a decent fit for Changeling,...but if they had to:

                        I would have liked more emphasis on how the local Anangu from both the Yankunytjatjara and Pitjantjatjara ( and maybe Ngaanyatjarra and Luritja) language groups interact with the Changeling community. Perhaps base the motley out of Mutitjulu, instead of out of the rock itself.

                        Naming the character Mala, a call back to the
                        Rufous Hare Wallaby Dreaming sites along the northwestern corner and most of the northern face of the rock, was a little cutesy and not really a common name for a person but it slips under my radar.

                        In terms of her kith, I understand the need to be super vague and I'm not sure what local minor spirits would be a reasonable fit for a Changeling analogue, moiety totems and skins are a whole different mess even for out country mobs so I agree with nixing the Menehune/Nunnehi Totemic set up......fairly sure a reasonable compromise could be made regarding songlines acting as trods which also can give djang as they are ritually walked ( by the appropriate folks....which is a big thing unless a compromise can be made in terms of the Ancestors recognising that one can put aside their mortal skin ( as in skin group, not actual skin) when walking the Dreaming ( Changeling Dreamining in this case).

                        I think theres room somewhere for it to all work out ok, but I don't think its a 'meet in the middle' thing I think it has to tend more towards what loomer is painting.

                        Jumping ahead, in terms of kiths its best to keep well away from Ancestors both site based and Moiety Ancestors ( and where the two are one and the same), there are a LOT of human looking minor spirit beings in Dreaming stories that mostly only brush against secret business so I think they are probably the best bet to use. Things like Mimi,
                        Ngayurnangalku, Mamu, Yawk Yawk, Namande and the like.



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