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  • #16
    Space being another dimension is kind of a silly concept that mostly was used pre-Revised Mage, most everyone else doesn't say you go to another dimension by leaving the atmosphere. Neil Armstrong didn't travel dimensions. In revised era most books just have it space is a low gauntlet space, not a zero gauntlet other dimension. I mean you don't see spirits through your telescope.

    And nothing says seeing the moon doesn't count because you need greater resolution, it could just be that you go to the moon but not somewhere terribly specific. Also the if you have a Moonrock from a Moon Trip you can then use that to go there. But Werewolf, Changeling, and some Mage treats space as space, not dimension X.

    I can see the Art not working though, because a lot of magic is limited to not going to the moon, or actually only just going to the moon but no further.


    And I didn't say changeling can breath in space or anything by default, but they do have magics and treasures to aid them.


    But if Flicker doesn't take you to the moon well Unleashing possibly could.


    If we make a space Colony to the moon for instance I believe it puts the moon more within the reach to many magics. Before in the Dark Ages for instance Mages couldn't travel as far in the Solar System.


    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    Maybe with a telescope. The human/kithain eye isn't qualified to make out details on the moon to categorize it as a place. Conversely you could totally use a live steam of the mars rover to go to mars.

    I think the more important question about Flickerflash is while you can't teleport people to prisons can you teleport them straight up and let gravity do its thing?

    That's not how it works though... you give the target the power to teleport to a location of their choice, its not a you can teleport others as long as its not to a prison spell.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      Space being another dimension is kind of a silly concept that mostly was used pre-Revised Mage, most everyone else doesn't say you go to another dimension by leaving the atmosphere. Neil Armstrong didn't travel dimensions. In revised era most books just have it space is a low gauntlet space, not a zero gauntlet other dimension. I mean you don't see spirits through your telescope.
      Moon landing was faked. Ask the Etherites.

      And nothing says seeing the moon doesn't count because you need greater resolution, it could just be that you go to the moon but not somewhere terribly specific. Also the if you have a Moonrock from a Moon Trip you can then use that to go there. But Werewolf, Changeling, and some Mage treats space as space, not dimension X.
      I'm going to solidly argue you don't count as seeing the moon as a place if you just look up at the sky. You have to see it clearly as a location. Though Moon rocks would count. If Seeing the Moon counts for Flickflash, why not Mars?

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      • #18
        Why not Mars? Especially if you have a Telescope. Flickerflash is not so limited in C20. Hell I like to think some crazy fae went to the Sun, or Anthelios.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          Why not Mars? Especially if you have a Telescope. Flickerflash is not so limited in C20. Hell I like to think some crazy fae went to the Sun, or Anthelios.

          Right I would let someone with a Telescope Teleport to Mars. I wouldn't let them point at the vague red dot in the sky and teleport there. Same with the Moon. They have ot actually see a location on the Moon.

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          • #20
            Doesn't seem like too much of a difference to me... I mean if you didn't have a telescope you wouldn't control were you would teleport exactly, and telescopes aren't hard to come by. Maybe you even teleport somewhere dangerous, I mean besides the fact that no atmospheres are a danger hazard.


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            • #21
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              Doesn't seem like too much of a difference to me... I mean if you didn't have a telescope you wouldn't control were you would teleport exactly, and telescopes aren't hard to come by. Maybe you even teleport somewhere dangerous, I mean besides the fact that no atmospheres are a danger hazard.

              If you can't make out distinguishing features of an area you can't "see" it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Lian View Post


                If you can't make out distinguishing features of an area you can't "see" it.
                Rules as written there is no such distinguishing line. If someone is standing at the end of a hall and you can't read the pin on their vest, you can still wayfare a sticker to cover it. Are going to get into a boat of Theseus/Buddhist chair debate on what makes seeing something a thing? I'm fine if there are limiters on Flicker Flash, but the rules as written you can go to the moon or even Mars. Maybe you can have it since Mars is so small you can't guarantee you won't overshoot and pop yourself in orbit or high up in the air. You can see it, it is not invisible it is just indistinct. You can see the moon, you can see Craters, you can go there. Otherwise what you can't teleport to an island when you are on a ship and the coast just enters the horizon? You can't wayfare a sticker over a button?

                What are you losing with this argument? Even if you need a Telescope that's an easy fix. But what are you losing by not needing a Telescope?

                R


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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                  What are you losing with this argument? Even if you need a Telescope that's an easy fix. But what are you losing by not needing a Telescope?
                  A normal telescope does not allow you to see the surface of a planet like Mars. And I don't think it's powerful enough to perceive finer details of the moon.

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                  • #24
                    You can see it enough for it to go from being a Mars blur to at least being round, that's enough for me to say you can pop onto the ground. And you can still go to a more powerful telescope like an observatory. How fine do you need the Moon to be? You can distinguish the heavy pockmarks on the moon so I say you can choose to land there. Otherwise what you can't Flicker to a Plane's wing you see up in the sky because its far away? Like seriously can you give me a reference to how HD you want an image to be to flicker their? If I am on an Airplane and look down a tree may look very tiny like a blur but I would allow you to flicker to it, maybe not determine the exact branch but still go there.


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                    • #25
                      Flicker Flash lets you teleport to somewhere else in the same "realm". Ever having seen the place is not a requirement. You could use it to drop into a friends house even if you have never seen inside.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by zenten View Post
                        Flicker Flash lets you teleport to somewhere else in the same "realm". Ever having seen the place is not a requirement. You could use it to drop into a friends house even if you have never seen inside.
                        A few caveats apply. First, the traveler must know, see, or
                        possess a part of the place she intends to go.
                        I would strongly argue that I couldn't drop into a friends house I've never been to without a piece of it or seeing where I am going. Same with the Moon(so moon rocks but telescope is probably easier)



                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        You can see it enough for it to go from being a Mars blur to at least being round, that's enough for me to say you can pop onto the ground. And you can still go to a more powerful telescope like an observatory. How fine do you need the Moon to be? You can distinguish the heavy pockmarks on the moon so I say you can choose to land there. Otherwise what you can't Flicker to a Plane's wing you see up in the sky because its far away? Like seriously can you give me a reference to how HD you want an image to be to flicker their? If I am on an Airplane and look down a tree may look very tiny like a blur but I would allow you to flicker to it, maybe not determine the exact branch but still go there.

                        I don't think you can properly distinguish features on the Moon with the naked eye. I would totally allow teleporting to the wing of a plane if you can distuinguish it as a plane vs say a "bright dot moving at night". I would allow people to teleport from a Plane to a tree bellow if they can properly distinguish it as a separate tree. I'd like someone teleport to a place being live streamed. I'd probably let someone use a photo so.. yeah they could teleport to the Moon landing sight with a photo.

                        But this is my personal interpretation. I think this gives 'purpose" to having pieces or having been to a place before, vs "there's this secret prison that exists TELEPORT"
                        Last edited by Lian; 05-12-2018, 12:18 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by zenten View Post
                          Flicker Flash lets you teleport to somewhere else in the same "realm". Ever having seen the place is not a requirement. You could use it to drop into a friends house even if you have never seen inside.
                          Although at that point I would say that the casting changeling has no control over where they land...which if I was running as ST, would mean rolling to determine where they land. Either as convenient as being in talking distance with their friend, or as inconvenient as the backyard pool.

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                          • #28
                            So Spring's well of life can heal your injuries and even heal trees. So wondering would you have to specifically dedicate the magic to heal say a cracked tooth or a scar to get them to heal them? Otherwise they don't mention things like broken teeth being healed incidentally.


                            So I'm a bit confused on the state of Trods and the Dreaming. Was it nobody could enter the Dreaming again until the Resurgence? Or was it Trods became rarer and rarer, until the resurgence hit and they popped back up and people started rediscovering them. But people could always do things like Unleash Wayfare to pop into the Dreaming yeah? Could they still use Cantrips on Freehold to enter or was the Dreaming locked during then? At the very least shouldn't the Americas and Hawaii and other places affected later by the Shattering still have non Tuatha Trod equivalents?

                            And you need Wayfare to Enter the dreaming period right? You can't just go to a Freehold? I know sometimes temporary portals open. So most Changelings then usually just interact with Chimerical things in the Autumn World but they much less often go into the Dreaming, and that is usually from a freehold. So most of the Near Dreaming will be defined and anchored along Freeholds, but beyond them they start becoming wylder and more virgin territory? Meanwhile things like the Penumbra more correlate to the same space in the real world while the Dreaming gets muddy with that away from Trods? Also Freehold has a reflection in the Dreaming rather then existing simultaneously in both right? So you can have a real world room but would have to go to the dreaming to see that reflection? I know the book mentions the physics of space in the freehold can be wonky. Is it sometimes a Fae sees extra rooms or more space in a room that normies don't see? Miens are seen by everyone in the Dreaming right? And Freeholds you still need to enchant to see someone but people can Call Upon Wyrd more easily?


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              So Spring's well of life can heal your injuries and even heal trees. So wondering would you have to specifically dedicate the magic to heal say a cracked tooth or a scar to get them to heal them? Otherwise they don't mention things like broken teeth being healed incidentally.
                              I suspect that would only happen if you Unleashed Spring to heal. Otherwise, I would think it heals what it tells you to if things go fine.

                              So I'm a bit confused on the state of Trods and the Dreaming. Was it nobody could enter the Dreaming again until the Resurgence? Or was it Trods became rarer and rarer, until the resurgence hit and they popped back up and people started rediscovering them.
                              The latter.

                              But people could always do things like Unleash Wayfare to pop into the Dreaming yeah?
                              There's the small issue of getting back if you didn't come here via trod. You could Unleash your way back...just realize that you're probably going to be racked by Nightmares real soon.

                              And you need Wayfare to Enter the dreaming period right? You can't just go to a Freehold? I know sometimes temporary portals open. So most Changelings then usually just interact with Chimerical things in the Autumn World but they much less often go into the Dreaming, and that is usually from a freehold. So most of the Near Dreaming will be defined and anchored along Freeholds, but beyond them they start becoming wylder and more virgin territory?
                              Ways to enter the Dreaming:
                              • Trods
                              • Wayfare 3 (Portal Passage) + Fae Realm 5
                              • Unleashing Wayfare
                              • Oneiromancy 3 (Dream Portal)
                              • Unleashing Oneiromancy
                              • Freehold gateways
                              • Wild Portals
                              You are not restricted at all to just Wayfare.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post




                                Ways to enter the Dreaming:
                                • Trods
                                • Wayfare 3 (Portal Passage) + Fae Realm 5
                                • Unleashing Wayfare
                                • Oneiromancy 3 (Dream Portal)
                                • Unleashing Oneiromancy
                                • Freehold gateways
                                • Wild Portals
                                You are not restricted at all to just Wayfare.
                                But I thought you needed Wayfare to open Freehold Gateways and Trods from the Mortal side? Or was it they just each had a special key/secret that could open them and were just established with Wayfare?


                                It is a time for great deeds!

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