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Unseelie House Treason and Fae Cold War

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  • Unseelie House Treason and Fae Cold War

    So it seems half the Unseelie houses are outright treasonous against Arcadia/Tuatha, and even though Houses are huge organizations, and some like Balor are super obviously snively Whiplashes, I mean they are called House Balor for godsake you know names have power so the whole their name is a joke thing holds no weight for me to take seriously. And Thallain are talked about as hanging in secret among the Unseelie, or at least House Balor and the Shadow Court. It seems to me they are sometimes inconsistent saying sometimes Thallain can comingle with the most unscrupulous of the Unseelie, but other times the assumption is more Thallain are not to be suffered to exist and Kithain are obligated to crusade against them similar to the Garou against the Black Spiral Dancers.

    I think if I were to run a modern game I would have at least Balor somewhat outed and not quite fully part of Concordia. Making them perhaps closer to how Independent Vampire clans relate to the Camarilla. Maybe make them the backbone of the Shadowcourt. And have things hover at a more coldwar status with the rest of the Kithain since the other houses are essentially part of the Tuatha/Arcadian hierarchy. They would be at the opposite pole of the Courts with maybe Leanhaun being still very much part of Concordia but recognized as being shady along with Ailil.

    But I also like the idea that the Thallain, especially with their numbers boosted with the Evanescence, became less cohesive and kind of split between full on Fomorian agents, and those who are opportunists and willing to dwell among the Unseelie or even alone. It is this idea I am playing with with some of my homebrew Gallain groups, like the various Oni tribes having those with Nightmare Legacies coomingle with those with more normal legacies, and an Idea I have for a Lilin group of Gallain that has essentially Thallain affiliated with Lilith as well as Unseelies.

    But I'm pondering how long to have a cold war, and then full on everyone has to choose sides as the Fomorians and Tuatha bring their War back in full.

    But the Thallain do seem to really vary with some full on being Nephandy/BSD level wicked by nature, and some just being violent Jackasses but not ones inherently worse than say Redcaps. I mean if you have an Ogre at least they are simple. If your local Court allows Redcaps to go around eating folks in roving Corbies why not let an Ogre exist under supervision or sponsorship, especially if they are oathed in.

    Otherwise what? Are you going to genocide the Thallain? The customs, laws, and mores of the changelings do not seem as concrete and uniform as the Traditions of the Draculers or the Litany of the Wolves. Sometimes changelings are described just flat out ignoring the whole they are supposed to keep secret from mortals thing because they just rely off of the mists. Sometimes their customs are standard, like don't break oaths, and others they are more flexible like sure we will break bread with this Sidhe who seems to collect a lot of infernal lore and carries supsiously fomorian deformities.

    We really need them Thallain Houses...


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    But the Thallain do seem to really vary with some full on being Nephandy/BSD level wicked by nature, and some just being violent Jackasses but not ones inherently worse than say Redcaps. I mean if you have an Ogre at least they are simple. If your local Court allows Redcaps to go around eating folks in roving Corbies why not let an Ogre exist under supervision or sponsorship, especially if they are oathed in.
    You forget that every redcap have to opportunity to inspire, love, make the dreaming better. Yes, tons of them are angry bullies, but there are also friend, comrades, fathers, lovers between them.

    The Thallain don't have theese opportunites. They need wet soaked nightmares to feed. They taint, no matter what. And you can't change it. It's not because they consious choice but because of their inner drive. At least if they wan't to use Glamour.

    Think them as an invasive predator what competes for food and environment. You are the ladybug, and they are the harlequin one.

    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    Otherwise what? Are you going to genocide the Thallain?
    The best question. The current Concordia is not prepared to cope with the Thallain so it will change or fall. But how? This could be the focus of whole gamelines.


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    • #3
      The Unseelie Houses HAVE vastly changed between 2e and C20. The whole betrayal thing isn't explicit and while Balor is a name of power... they don't really have much option to change it out on an ooc level.

      As for Thallain houses, I don't agree. The Thallain are meant to be thugs, the low rung the Dark Kin seem to have been intended as the Noble caste for these things.

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      • #4
        I very much disagree on the Thallain thing. And if anything the Dark Kin are a half step beneath changelings, and definitely not princes of Darkness. Sevartal are meant to be evil mirrors of the Sidhe and should have at least one house. Same with Marducha/Merrow since Merfolk were nobles.

        Some Thallain were thugs, but they have their leaders, and that is why they now are the secret masters of the Shadow Court. That whole Thallain are all stupid thugs thing is even pointed out as patentedly false and the reason why the Thallain quickly took the reigns.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Lian View Post
          As for Thallain houses, I don't agree. The Thallain are meant to be thugs

          This is true. The Thallain came into existence in a time that predated human civilization. They embody dreams of chaos, savagery and barbarism. A time when the only authority that mattered was whoever was the strongest in the land.

          Establishing them as nobility would contradict their origins, as well as their very nature.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


            This is true. The Thallain came into existence in a time that predated human civilization. They embody dreams of chaos, savagery and barbarism. A time when the only authority that mattered was whoever was the strongest in the land.

            Establishing them as nobility would contradict their origins, as well as their very nature.
            ? I didn't say all of them were nobles, only their nobles. Even the Fomorians had chiefs and Kings. Why do we even have Sevartal if they can't be Lords? And not all are primordial dreams, some seem to be later add ons.


            It is a time for great deeds!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
              ? I didn't say all of them were nobles, only their nobles. Even the Fomorians had chiefs and Kings. Why do we even have Sevartal if they can't be Lords? And not all are primordial dreams, some seem to be later add ons.

              I envision the Sevartal as being in a similar light to the Tzimisce, in the sense that they mercilessly abused the power and authority entrusted to them. They're not so much nobles, as they are tyrants who forced everyone to kneel before them.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                I envision the Sevartal as being in a similar light to the Tzimisce, in the sense that they mercilessly abused the power and authority entrusted to them. They're not so much nobles, as they are tyrants who forced everyone to kneel before them.

                I think that concept of a tyrant is too close to the seelie concept of nobility. I see them more as constantly having to assert authority, because no one is ever giving it to them freely.

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                • #9
                  Sorry, somehow double posted.
                  Last edited by zenten; 05-30-2018, 10:34 AM. Reason: somehow double posted

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by zenten View Post


                    because no one is ever giving it to them freely.

                    Actually, they kind of are. According to C20, simply being in the presence of a Servartal has a subtle mind control effect on others. If you've ever played Mass Effect, try to imagine the Reaper's indoctrination process, and it's something like that. The more time they spend around the Sevartal, the more comfortable they become with following their orders, until they eventually become so accustomed to it, they're almost powerless to resist.
                    Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-30-2018, 11:09 AM.

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                    • #11
                      I knew I should have reread it before replying

                      Yeah, that sounds more like a corruption of the Arcadian Dream than something really about the Fomorians pre-Tuatha.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        ? I didn't say all of them were nobles, only their nobles. Even the Fomorians had chiefs and Kings. Why do we even have Sevartal if they can't be Lords? And not all are primordial dreams, some seem to be later add ons.

                        Because they are corruption of innocence rather than anything to do with nobility? There are no Svertal naturally. They only exist by a "disease" in the Dreaming. They could easily be made extinct without a single act of Banality. Just never let them make another. They never come back then.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post


                          Because they are corruption of innocence rather than anything to do with nobility? There are no Svertal naturally. They only exist by a "disease" in the Dreaming. They could easily be made extinct without a single act of Banality. Just never let them make another. They never come back then.


                          Where does it say that? I know they have the power to turn pre-chrysalis changelings into one of their own, but I don't remember anything about them not being able to reproduce naturally. They also received the benefits of the Changeling Way ritual, apparently. Since the Thallain are said to have just spontaneously been subjected to it upon their escape.

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                          • #14
                            Exactly that is all not said in the books. Nobility doesn’t have to be good or just, rulership is rulership in the Dreaming. Sevartal just increase their numbers with their birthright nothing says they are a disease. Thallain are as natural as the Kithain. And there are nobles beyond the Sidhe, such as the Merfolk, half the menehune callings, the Oba and the Kamuii... and the Sevartal. Meanwhile Balorians are flat out working for the Fomorians as fifth colomnist or at best Hopi g to usurp their power.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Exactly that is all not said in the books. Nobility doesn’t have to be good or just, rulership is rulership in the Dreaming. Sevartal just increase their numbers with their birthright nothing says they are a disease. Thallain are as natural as the Kithain. And there are nobles beyond the Sidhe, such as the Merfolk, half the menehune callings, the Oba and the Kamuii... and the Sevartal. Meanwhile Balorians are flat out working for the Fomorians as fifth colomnist or at best Hopi g to usurp their power.


                              Well, as I said, they were born in a time of chaos and barbarism. The way I imagine it, their interpretation of rule is different from the Kithain. Remember, the Fey are more than just people, they are the very embodiment of ideas and emotions. The true state of the Fey does not perceive the world in the same fashion as mortals. They view it from the perspective of dreams, expressions and metaphors.

                              And these ideas come from medieval times, or even further back than that. I haven't found any material detailing the emergence of new types of Fey who reflect the modern world or its hierarchy. The only exception being the Autumn Sidhe, but they were just altered from their Arcadian counterparts, rather than being a new idea themselves.


                              The children of the Tuatha organized a hierarchy founded in the idea of selected lineages and a stabilized government. If somebody was higher than you on the totem pole, it's because they were specifically groomed to be such from the day they were born. They are genetically, mentally and spiritually better than the randomly generated mess that is your family tree. That's what makes them nobility and you a mere commoner.


                              The children of the Fomorians, however, organized their hierarchy based on survival of the fittest. If somebody was higher than you on the totem pole, it's because they seized that position through force or duplicitous actions. That could mean the Sevartal are in charge because of their mind controlling abilities, but it could also refer to an Ogre being recognized as the mightiest warrior among his tribe, or a Beastie could be the alpha of a pack of wild animals.

                              Entitlements among the Thallain are too chaotic and disorganized to be called a proper hierarchy with a nobility status. They change hands so frequently that anybody who's arrogant enough to claim an official position is just daring their rivals to pull off a coup.
                              Last edited by Nyrufa; 05-30-2018, 07:34 PM.

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