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ORCS! The actual Satyr Thallain

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  • ORCS! The actual Satyr Thallain

    Although most people think Orcs are something made up by J.R.R.Tolkien, Orcs are an Italian goblin. They are, according to most authorities, connected to Satyrs. Basically, satyrs went from being minor rural deities to minor rural devils. Orcos, which is how most Italians say Orc, are still well known in Italy. As late as the 1990s "You smell like an orco!" was a commonplace Italian insult.

    Orcos aren't alone in being derived from satyrs. In Italy you also have Orchi. The Swiss have Orculli. The Greeks have Callicantzaros. Even the Arab Ghul is said to be derived from the satyr.

    Each of these would make a better and more interesting Thallain than the Nasties.

    I'll try to give gameable details of each of these creatures, the Orco, the Orchi, the Orculli, the Callicantzaros, and the Ghuls. Please hop in if you have independent data or simply serious comments.

  • #2
    How closely does the mythology fit the Nasties in Changeling?

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    • #3
      The Callicantzaros as a group are noted for three traits. First, they are giants of vast strength and endurance. Second, they are incredibly fast. Third, they are jumpy and unable to sit still. The local Athenian name for the Callicantzaros translates as "Those with needles in their bottoms." Typically they are depicted as of low intelligence but very cunning.

      The Orco and the Ghul are very similar. Each has the gift of covering themselves with an illusion, generally of a safe/harmless person. Both are inhumanly strong when attacking. Each has a foul stench which nothing can cover up. Both delight in strangling strangers and leaving them dead by the road.

      Orculli are as small as young children, Orcos and Ghuls being of normal human size and Orchi and Callicantzaros being giants. Orculli are masters of illusion and potent magicians generally. Orculli are also known to be stealthy even when not using magic. Greed, malice, and vanity are their traditional weaknesses.

      Orchi are said to be giants that live in the clouds. They are strong as giants are supposed to be. They can turn into clouds and mist and fly back to their cloud homes. They are impressively stupid.

      I'll try to work these into birthrights and frailties at a later time.

      Last edited by Astromancer; 06-03-2018, 03:10 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by zenten View Post
        How closely does the mythology fit the Nasties in Changeling?

        Basically, Nasties are simply Unseelie Satyrs with the dials turned up.

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        • #5
          Except that Nasties fit the bill in the stench department, like both Orco and the Ghuls, and Maenads madness is fitting, in my personal opinion it ties them nicely to their Satyr mirrors. Besides personally giant as a Satyr Thallain just doesnt feel right to me.

          Then again I may be biased since it seems the Nasty will end upbeing the most memorable and most talked about NPC in my currently chronicle despite my best effort to promote her Sevartal leader as a notable persona.
          Last edited by Possessed; 06-03-2018, 01:02 PM. Reason: Typo

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
            Except that Nasties fit the bill in the stench department, like both Orco and the Ghuls, and Maenads madness is fitting, in my personal opinion it ties them nicely to their Satyr mirrors. Besides personally giant as a Satyr Thallain just doesn't feel right to me.
            Yes, the Nasties have the sink. Note: Although the Callicantzaros and the Orchi are giants, Ghuls and Orcos are human sized, and Orculli and some types of Callicantzaros described in John Cuthbert Lawson's Modern Greek Folklore and Ancient Greek Religion: A Study in Survivals(first printed around 1900) are the size of five year olds.

            Then again I may be biased since it seems the Nasty will end up being the most memorable and most talked about NPC in my currently chronicle despite my best effort to promote her Sevartal leader as a notable persona.
            Hey, your game your rules. Have fun.

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            • #7
              My point about giants being that I dont think they would be suitable as Satyr Thallain, they seem more suitable as Ogres. Specifically Callicantzaros could just be Ogres who specialize in Wayfare and Orchi could be Ogres specializing in Metamorphosis. Ogres are giants who are strong as hell but not that bright though they can be cunning so they kinda fit with both of the aforementioned beings.

              Also like said Orco and Ghuls by abilities and temperaments could be portrayed by Nasties, though appearance wise they are different ofcourse, who specialize in Dragons Ire to boost up their strengths while attacking.

              Basically what I’m saying is you can create new Kiths, Thallain or Gallain to portray these, or many other beings of mythology the world over, or you can just use the existing ones with a dash of Arts and Merits/Flaws to represent them. The question is as always about how complicated you want things to be/get.

              For example one could create a Gargoyle Kith or just use Redcaps, Trolls and even Satyrs with certain merits/flaws to portray Gargoyles of different temperaments. Same can be done with different giants or foul smelling critters Etc.

              But as always YMMV.

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              • #8
                Well aren't the Orcos essentially put into the Ogres. My understanding is that it is etymologically connected. Orc, Ogre, and the god Orcus. Though the game also ties Ogres with Troll and Ettins and are a very specific thing.

                But Orcs has a helluva lot of baggage with DnD and what not. This is why I believe Weeping Wights are called Weeping Wights, rather then just Wights. Because Wights got coopted by modern fantasy. Like Lich, without modern fantasy it wouldn't have the emphasis upon the word it would have.

                I'm a fan of Satyrs possibly having multiple Thallain though. like Minotaurs and Harpies (both limited to males and females respectively but like Satyrs evolved to be both sexes in modern times) and a christian Devilish Baphomet goatmanish Thallain.

                I mean its sometimes cool when they use generic names for Thallains like Ghasts, but using Nasties for Satyr Thallain is a big issue because its so generic when we have already a lot of flavorful things to draw upon


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by zenten View Post
                  How closely does the mythology fit the Nasties in Changeling?


                  I don't ever recall hearing about "Nasties" as a mythical creature to begin with.

                  That sounds more like a villain from the Neverending Story (The Darkness and The Nothing being two examples) than anything derived from a real world fairy tale.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Well aren't the Orcos essentially put into the Ogres. My understanding is that it is etymologically connected. Orc, Ogre, and the god Orcus. Though the game also ties Ogres with Troll and Ettins and are a very specific thing.

                    But Orcs has a helluva lot of baggage with DnD and what not. This is why I believe Weeping Wights are called Weeping Wights, rather then just Wights. Because Wights got coopted by modern fantasy. Like Lich, without modern fantasy it wouldn't have the emphasis upon the word it would have.

                    I'm a fan of Satyrs possibly having multiple Thallain though. like Minotaurs and Harpies (both limited to males and females respectively but like Satyrs evolved to be both sexes in modern times) and a christian Devilish Baphomet goatmanish Thallain.

                    I mean its sometimes cool when they use generic names for Thallains like Ghasts, but using Nasties for Satyr Thallain is a big issue because its so generic when we have already a lot of flavorful things to draw upon

                    Minotaurs aren't a repeat.. there's ONE Minotaur. The idea of them as a race of Thallain has about as much basis as Orcs. The idea of them as any kind of race is solidly a creation of C.S. Lewis and if we are going to let him make Kithain(which isn't a bad idea) then they should be Kithain. There's nothing about Lewis' Minotaurs that are particularly Nightmarey.

                    I'd go with Empusa instead. They are seducers who eat people.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lian View Post


                      Minotaurs aren't a repeat.. there's ONE Minotaur. The idea of them as a race of Thallain has about as much basis as Orcs. The idea of them as any kind of race is solidly a creation of C.S. Lewis and if we are going to let him make Kithain(which isn't a bad idea) then they should be Kithain. There's nothing about Lewis' Minotaurs that are particularly Nightmarey.

                      I'd go with Empusa instead. They are seducers who eat people.
                      Yeah but people go with famous figures and use them as basis of Kiths. Eshu and Numibozos where each characters that inspire whole kiths, and people like using them as more then a one off. But you also have the Horse and Bull headed Ogres that guard the Underworld for China/Japan.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        Yeah but people go with famous figures and use them as basis of Kiths. Eshu and Numibozos where each characters that inspire whole kiths, and people like using them as more then a one off. But you also have the Horse and Bull headed Ogres that guard the Underworld for China/Japan.

                        I don't see how this justifies Minotaurs as Satyr Thallain. Either we go with myth(which would be the only way to justify them as a Thallain) but if that's the case then there's only one Minotaur. On the other hand if they are a fairy race and you start incorporating things like Ox-head then they should be a full Kithain race since all the development as more than one thing has moved them into a generic race thing and Ox-head is very much a servant of the Celestial Order.

                        Empusa who have one leg is a goat's one leg is bronze and KILL people dumb enough to be seduced by them seem to be a better dark fit for Satyrs.

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                        • #13
                          Well I am saying its a total headcanon for it. But Minotaurs are a famous modern trope, you don't need to link them to C.S. Lewis, I still haven't read those books, but if you go with Greek stuff everyone always drops in a minotaur. Basically I go with the Scion Idea that they gave Virgins to the minotaur... and he had sons... lots and lots of sons...

                          I mean otherwise I would include Centaurs, but the whole horse body thing is wonky for chimerical meins as explained in other books hence why many were said to become Satyrs along with other animalistic beings. I just think the repacity and broad popularity of them in popular culture make them good candidates. But I feel many of these Satyr Thallain are actually more like how Nunnehi have a grouped together Thallain like Skin Walkers who don't mirror a specific Kith.

                          For the Ox Head thing, I have Thallainyish Fae who do dwell among the non Thallain and still have Nightmare legacies. But outside of that in Kithain territory they are mostly Thallain.


                          It is a time for great deeds!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                            Well I am saying its a total headcanon for it. But Minotaurs are a famous modern trope, you don't need to link them to C.S. Lewis, I still haven't read those books, but if you go with Greek stuff everyone always drops in a minotaur. Basically I go with the Scion Idea that they gave Virgins to the minotaur... and he had sons... lots and lots of sons...

                            I mean otherwise I would include Centaurs, but the whole horse body thing is wonky for chimerical meins as explained in other books hence why many were said to become Satyrs along with other animalistic beings. I just think the repacity and broad popularity of them in popular culture make them good candidates. But I feel many of these Satyr Thallain are actually more like how Nunnehi have a grouped together Thallain like Skin Walkers who don't mirror a specific Kith.

                            For the Ox Head thing, I have Thallainyish Fae who do dwell among the non Thallain and still have Nightmare legacies. But outside of that in Kithain territory they are mostly Thallain.

                            Yes Minotaurs are a famous modern Trope. As part of that Trope they generally aren't "Psychotic Monster" the only thing "Thallainish" about minotaurs would be if we go back to the original. If we don't and we take into them as a modern thing then they aren't particularly rapacious. Honestly trope wise They generally tend to be guardians of places based on some sort of code/honor thing. Minotaurs might better work to cover Trolls! Minotaurs could be the big strong honor guy, Trolls could be scary then.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              I don't see how this justifies Minotaurs as Satyr Thallain. Either we go with myth(which would be the only way to justify them as a Thallain) but if that's the case then there's only one Minotaur. On the other hand if they are a fairy race and you start incorporating things like Ox-head then they should be a full Kithain race since all the development as more than one thing has moved them into a generic race thing and Ox-head is very much a servant of the Celestial Order.

                              Empusa who have one leg is a goat's one leg is bronze and KILL people dumb enough to be seduced by them seem to be a better dark fit for Satyrs.
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              Well I am saying its a total headcanon for it. But Minotaurs are a famous modern trope, you don't need to link them to C.S. Lewis, I still haven't read those books, but if you go with Greek stuff everyone always drops in a minotaur. Basically I go with the Scion Idea that they gave Virgins to the minotaur... and he had sons... lots and lots of sons...

                              I mean otherwise I would include Centaurs, but the whole horse body thing is wonky for chimerical meins as explained in other books hence why many were said to become Satyrs along with other animalistic beings. I just think the repacity and broad popularity of them in popular culture make them good candidates. But I feel many of these Satyr Thallain are actually more like how Nunnehi have a grouped together Thallain like Skin Walkers who don't mirror a specific Kith.

                              For the Ox Head thing, I have Thallainyish Fae who do dwell among the non Thallain and still have Nightmare legacies. But outside of that in Kithain territory they are mostly Thallain.
                              ...just as a note, Kithbook Satyr does make a mention of minotaur, centaur, and even hern kithain.

                              That they're all close cousins, so to speak, of the satyrs. That all of them except for satyrs seemingly vanished forever after the times of ancient Greece (implying that the Sundering may have been responsible for that). And that while there are the occasional unsubstantiated reports of these kiths out and about, at the very least satyrs are the only Greek faeries left in any substantial number.

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