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[C20 Player's Guide] Bellatierra preview

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  • #16
    I mean Trolls don’t even make good Trolls.


    I’ve seen the each splat is general thing already. I find it rather refreshing and intriguing to have Changeling have each splat niche and what not. So instead I just make say Wendigo a new kith rather then a redcap, well They are Thallain in my games.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
      I mean Trolls don’t even make good Trolls.
      Pooka do make best Trolls.


      But seriously Troll is pretty much the same as fairy in a many places so its kind of hard for them to live up to everything said about them

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      • #18
        Exactly. The problem is the first Batch of Jiths released for the Game were essentially creations of the game, not really worrying about reflecting myths too much and some like Sluagh and Boggins represent a broad and varied Archetype but took a specific approach to it. But then each later Kith made each Kith a very specific Creature and they much more closely seemed tied to their inspirational myths. So you have Trolls who are Viking Knights who don’t really come from Legends but then we get Selkies who are pretty much taken right from legend.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
          Exactly. The problem is the first Batch of Jiths released for the Game were essentially creations of the game, not really worrying about reflecting myths too much and some like Sluagh and Boggins represent a broad and varied Archetype but took a specific approach to it. But then each later Kith made each Kith a very specific Creature and they much more closely seemed tied to their inspirational myths. So you have Trolls who are Viking Knights who don’t really come from Legends but then we get Selkies who are pretty much taken right from legend.

          Nah big giant knights DO come from legend though. The only real odd kith out in the base is Satyrs.

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          • #20
            I think the Trolls were inspired mainly by Norse Jotunn, including ones like Skadi and Gerdr, as well as Welsh giant myths, with bits of the Greek giants thrown in. At least that was the impression I got from the Kith book.


            What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
            Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
              I think the Trolls were inspired mainly by Norse Jotunn, including ones like Skadi and Gerdr, as well as Welsh giant myths, with bits of the Greek giants thrown in. At least that was the impression I got from the Kith book.
              Yeah, they are more like the Jotunn or Ettin kith, but they made em blue and popped on some horns.

              Now Redcaps and Sluagh are more the trolls of myths, what with Underbridge being theirs and all.


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #22
                I always suspected the blue skin was an homage to Robert E. Howard's "The Frost Giant's Daughter".

                Just personally, I also like to throw in influences from the Basque jentilak (a tendency toward being hirsute and building stuff out of large stones), the Hebrew Anakim, certain Native American legends (the Choctaw and Cherokee have some interesting ones), and 19th century folklore of Paul Bunyan and John Henry.


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

                  Yeah, they are more like the Jotunn or Ettin kith, but they made em blue and popped on some horns.

                  Now Redcaps and Sluagh are more the trolls of myths, what with Underbridge being theirs and all.


                  Not really. Troll is a pretty generic "Faery" name. Sometimes its monsters living under bridges sometimes its giant honorable guys who built some wierd geographic feature, sometimes its small naked people with wierd hair and gems on their belly buttons. Its Like Sidhe or Elves..

                  Sluagh are pretty consistantly what they are in both a generic "things that go in the dark" and match up to the myth that gave them their name(which are things in that go bump in the dark)

                  Redcaps are.. complicated. It seems Red cap was particular Scotish folklore character, like Baba Yaga in Eastern Europe. Now he was under the broadly under the concept of "Scary murderous goblin thing that eats you"(Though sometime he was more benign like Baba Yaga)

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                  • #24
                    Elves is generic but it can also be narrowed down in essence to what Sidhe and it translates well to other beings that are similar, like Sidhe and Alfar, and Tolkien elf, but Santa Elves are more Boggan and Knocker.

                    I’d like to see a source that says there is only one creature called the Redcap and all others are confusing the matter. Because from my understanding a few things were treated as a singular creature that died it’s head in blood, but also it has been treated in poems and tales as a group. I think it’s like the Shellycoat, it can be treated as a boogeyman that makes a coat of Shells but it can also be understood as a group of goblins that do so. There are multiple stories of blood as dye goblins, thy even give you some in the nickname category, like Dunthers.

                    So while Trolls is a broad term like say elf, it also can refer to specific beings. For instance you don’t call Dragons trolls or werewolves trolls, but you could call tiny men who turn into stone trolls and also call giants who turn into hills trolls. The Prose Edda even has one instance were they mention Troll, as Thor was Smashing Trolls in the East while the Aesir entertained a giant guest.

                    But you are missing the point I’m making. The first batch of Kiths were very specific beings, that didn’t need to be that specific as Archtypically they could have fit a wider group of beings. While latter Kiths were very specific beings they fit very specific roles.


                    It is a time for great deeds!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Elves is generic but it can also be narrowed down in essence to what Sidhe and it translates well to other beings that are similar, like Sidhe and Alfar, and Tolkien elf, but Santa Elves are more Boggan and Knocker.
                      Knockers are why Santa never gets you what you really want for Christmas!

                      I’d like to see a source that says there is only one creature called the Redcap and all others are confusing the matter. Because from my understanding a few things were treated as a singular creature that died it’s head in blood, but also it has been treated in poems and tales as a group. I think it’s like the Shellycoat, it can be treated as a boogeyman that makes a coat of Shells but it can also be understood as a group of goblins that do so. There are multiple stories of blood as dye goblins, thy even give you some in the nickname category, like Dunthers.
                      Well I said it was complicated. It seems at one time it was a Singular entity haunting one castle.. then he was haunting multiple castles so it sort of got expanded out into a group, and that guy promoted to Robin Redcap.



                      So while Trolls is a broad term like say elf, it also can refer to specific beings. For instance you don’t call Dragons trolls or werewolves trolls, but you could call tiny men who turn into stone trolls and also call giants who turn into hills trolls. The Prose Edda even has one instance were they mention Troll, as Thor was Smashing Trolls in the East while the Aesir entertained a giant guest.
                      I know its wikipedia.. but... according to that Werewolf is a legitimate translation for the word Troll...

                      But you are missing the point I’m making. The first batch of Kiths were very specific beings, that didn’t need to be that specific as Archtypically they could have fit a wider group of beings. While latter Kiths were very specific beings they fit very specific roles.
                      I would say its a mix? There's alot of myths that reoccur through out the world. Deciding say most House Fairies fall under Boggans isn't really a big stretch.

                      Sidhe-debately meant to be all noble elf types but really only expanded into that with the book of Lost houses and were treated as functionally British Imperialists in multiple books(see KB Eshu)

                      Sluagh-archtypal CReatures that go bump in the night/faerie things that are connected to dead people.. named after a Scottish thing that very nicely falls under that. I don't think there would be a better way to make a Sluagh kith.

                      Pooka-The most broad archetypal Kith I mean is there a culture where "shapeshifting trickster" isn't a thing?

                      Boggan-Real myth seems to work for this, but its also a commonly reoccuring myth so..

                      Nocker-the Real myth seems to solidly work with this, but could just as easily been Kobald or Goblin.

                      Troll-We already went over.

                      Satyr-extremely specific basis and myth as much so as any of the add on ones.

                      Redcaps are a very specific subset of a very particular myth, it seems like a pretty good fit.

                      Eshu-have sort of the problem of not knowing if they want to be a broad archtype or a particular racial connection and it shows.


                      Of the ones added in previous editions that weren't some form Gallain:


                      We have the Clurichain this actually probably could be expanded out into a variety of similar kiths and... would probably have come off as less of a racist joke.

                      The Selkie-could have been expanded into a generic secondary shapeshifter kith(plenty of "i put on my magic thing and transform into..." stories in myth)

                      Pixies-generic thief kith in.. all portrayals though named after one of those.

                      Green people-not even going to try to write their proper name.. they are a really weird concept all around and I think based entirely on the Green Knight which I'm not sure was a part of a race so much as a wierd thing he did.


                      so honestly I'd say it went back and forth and some kiths they didn't know if they were supposed to be archtypes or particular cultures depending on who was writing them.

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                      • #26
                        The text of the C20 referring to Bellatierra mentions the Kingdom of Amazonia and the Mountain Kingdoms. In the excerpt that was released in internet there is a lot of history about the region, something about the Kingfom of Mountain and the 10 guardians, being one of each kingdom, so I was wondering, will we have short descriptions of the kingdoms, as we had in C20? Texts like Cymru, Iberia, Neutria? As a Brazilian who is eager to have this material in hand to be able to set up local games I would like to know from you, writers who are working on the project, if you could give us more information about what else we can expect from South America in the book, besides the 4 or 5 new regional kiths.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wilkerj View Post
                          The text of the C20 referring to Bellatierra mentions the Kingdom of Amazonia and the Mountain Kingdoms. In the excerpt that was released in internet there is a lot of history about the region, something about the Kingfom of Mountain and the 10 guardians, being one of each kingdom, so I was wondering, will we have short descriptions of the kingdoms, as we had in C20? Texts like Cymru, Iberia, Neutria? As a Brazilian who is eager to have this material in hand to be able to set up local games I would like to know from you, writers who are working on the project, if you could give us more information about what else we can expect from South America in the book, besides the 4 or 5 new regional kiths.
                          My apologies for not seeing this: I'm not on the forums frequently in the last few months due to real life constraints.

                          South America, the Middle East, Africa and Australia were expanded as best we could within the word count with their own Dreaming topographies, Dreaming history, and legends and creation myths, as well as their own kiths and kingdoms. Fully one third of the Players' Guide was devoted to showcasing the areas outside of Concordia. Each Kingdom within Bellatierra, if I recall correctly (without the files directly at hand currently), has its own short description.


                          Luka Carroll
                          Onyx Path Freelancer & Developer
                          Working On: C20 Player's Guide, Lunars
                          Worked On: V20 TMR, Demon STG, C20, Book of Freeholds, Conquering Heroes, Building A Legend, Dragon-Blooded, The Realm

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Luka C View Post

                            My apologies for not seeing this: I'm not on the forums frequently in the last few months due to real life constraints.

                            South America, the Middle East, Africa and Australia were expanded as best we could within the word count with their own Dreaming topographies, Dreaming history, and legends and creation myths, as well as their own kiths and kingdoms. Fully one third of the Players' Guide was devoted to showcasing the areas outside of Concordia. Each Kingdom within Bellatierra, if I recall correctly (without the files directly at hand currently), has its own short description.
                            So I guess that means no India...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Luka C View Post

                              My apologies for not seeing this: I'm not on the forums frequently in the last few months due to real life constraints.

                              South America, the Middle East, Africa and Australia were expanded as best we could within the word count with their own Dreaming topographies, Dreaming history, and legends and creation myths, as well as their own kiths and kingdoms. Fully one third of the Players' Guide was devoted to showcasing the areas outside of Concordia. Each Kingdom within Bellatierra, if I recall correctly (without the files directly at hand currently), has its own short description.

                              Thanks for your response Luka.

                              Looking forward to the book's release.

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