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Goblins: Not a Kith!

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  • Goblins: Not a Kith!

    Goblin Slayer LIED



    So, it turns out that Goblins aren't actually a specific type of Fairy in cultural folk lore. The term "goblin" is just a word used to refer to "ugly fairy" and the majority of them are actually quite benevolent. Sure, the Redcap might be viewed as a type of Goblin (and very dangerous one at that), but you could also place Boggans, Nockers and (allegedly) even the lovable Pooka into the category of Goblin!

    So why all the hate for Goblins by tossing them in with the Thallain and making them a bunch of crazy anarchists?

    If anything, the use of Goblins should have been some sort of social standing among Changeling society, rather than an actual kith.


  • #2
    I think the original game just tended to take names that sounded somewhat suitable. I've often wondered if the Goblins of the Shadow Court should perhaps be called Gremlins instead.


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
      I think the original game just tended to take names that sounded somewhat suitable. I've often wondered if the Goblins of the Shadow Court should perhaps be called Gremlins instead.

      Yeah, I thought the same thing. Since they're described as having a love for destroying technology, among other things.

      Sounds pretty much like a Gremlin, to me!

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      • #4
        Real life folklore doesn't work like D&D with simple categories that everything slots into. Goblin makes sense for what it is.


        Also you can't have Gremlins without a mogwai kith obviously

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        • #5
          Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
          I think the original game just tended to take names that sounded somewhat suitable. I've often wondered if the Goblins of the Shadow Court should perhaps be called Gremlins instead.
          In my games they are the Gremlin Kith, because that is literally what they are. I use Goblin as a more Unseelie Dangerous Fae term.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            It's amazing what kind of epiphanies you can have on the toilet...

            I just thought of a way to introduce Hobgoblins into the game, by making them a Kith about overcoming social prejudices. In this case, the esteemed nobility (i.e Elves) choosing to mingle with the lowly commoners (i.e Goblins) and producing offspring with them (i.e Hobgoblins)!

            Seriously, it's a game about holding on to childhood innocence and keeping the dream alive. Why haven't we seen a Forbidden Romance style character, yet!?
            Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-10-2019, 09:34 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
              It's amazing what kind of epiphanies you can have on the toilet...

              I just thought of a way to introduce Hobgoblins into the game, by making them a Kith about overcoming social prejudices. In this case, the esteemed nobility (i.e Elves) choosing to mingle with the lowly commoners (i.e Goblins) and producing offspring with them (i.e Hobgoblins)!

              Seriously, it's a game about holding on to childhood innocence and keeping the dream alive. Why haven't we seen a Forbidden Romance style character, yet!?


              Because Forbidden Romances generally don't end in "hybrids".

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lian View Post



                Because Forbidden Romances generally don't end in "hybrids".

                As I said, Goblins are less an actual kith and more like a social standing within Faerie society.

                According to the actual folklore they come from, a Hobgoblin is the child of a Goblin and a pure blooded Elf.

                In the Changeling setting, you could interpret this as a Sidhe producing a child with a Commoner.

                And besides, it wouldn't be the first time new kiths have emerged and vanished as a result of the Dreaming's influence.

                The Wolpertinger, or whatever the hell they're called, started out as Chimera, before they evolved into Kiths.
                Last edited by Nyrufa; 01-11-2019, 12:12 AM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                  As I said, Goblins are less an actual kith and more like a social standing within Faerie society.

                  According to the actual folklore they come from, a Hobgoblin is the child of a Goblin and a pure blooded Elf.

                  In the Changeling setting, you could interpret this as a Sidhe producing a child with a Commoner.

                  And besides, it wouldn't be the first time new kiths have emerged and vanished as a result of the Dreaming's influence.

                  The Wolpertinger, or whatever the hell they're called, started out as Chimera, before they evolved into Kiths.

                  You asked why we haven't seen a Kith built around Forbidden romance as their birth condition. I'm saying because generally that's covered by those who engage in forbidden romances vs "sins of the parent" types. Various Houses are or built around the idea of forbidden/dangerous romances or are scarred by them. The Shining Host covers the whole thing fairly extensively including adding a whole new set of mechanics based on romance..

                  Its a pretty deeply covered concept.

                  Now if you want to say Hobgobilin's a slur for seelie who sleep with Unseelie. Nobles who sleep with commoners. And I'd like to know where you get this strong division of Goblin and elf is a thing in actual folklore.. because every variant I've seen when used specifically would be.. Boggans.
                  Last edited by Lian; 01-11-2019, 12:28 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post



                    Now if you want to say Hobgobilin's a slur for seelie who sleep with Unseelie. Nobles who sleep with commoners. And I'd like to know where you get this strong division of Goblin and elf is a thing in actual folklore.. because every variant I've seen when used specifically would be.. Boggans.
                    The video I linked in my original post goes into greater detail about it. But to summarize, the term "Goblin" means "Ugly Fairy."

                    And in some cultures, the term Elf and Fairy are synonymous with each other, so Goblin can also mean Ugly Elf.

                    In fact, the Earlking (a name that means King of Elves) is described as a giant goblin.

                    The Goblins which are described in C20 are more closely related to Gremlins, in the sense that their existence revolves around destroying technology, or at least causing it to malfunction.

                    In real Goblin mythology, however, most of the commoner Kiths would classify as various species of Goblins. Boggans being the most traditional, of course, but Redcaps also fall into that category, as would Nockers, Sluagh and, depending on who you ask, Trolls!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                      The video I linked in my original post goes into greater detail about it. But to summarize, the term "Goblin" means "Ugly Fairy."

                      And in some cultures, the term Elf and Fairy are synonymous with each other, so Goblin can also mean Ugly Elf.

                      To summarize: The video is wrong. Sometimes "ugly" means "wicked". Goblin, Fairy, Elf and Troll are extremely broad concepts that can vaguely be used interchangably. However HOBGoblin is not.



                      In fact, the Earlking (a name that means King of Elves) is described as a giant goblin.
                      Notice how.. that doesn't quite work with the whole theory



                      The Goblins which are described in C20 are more closely related to Gremlins, in the sense that their existence revolves around destroying technology, or at least causing it to malfunction.
                      Which profoundly ignores the folklore of gremlins. There's a reason why one of Goblin birthrights is Gremlin.. and one isn't. Gremlins don't build shit. They don't make great weapons. They break aircraft(and only aircraft).

                      In real Goblin mythology, however, most of the commoner Kiths would classify as various species of Goblins. Boggans being the most traditional, of course, but Redcaps also fall into that category, as would Nockers, Sluagh and, depending on who you ask, Trolls!
                      As would Sidhe, selkie, Clurichain, Skinwalkers etc... because in "Real" mythology Goblin is just a broad term for fairy. IF we really want to get into it.. SIDHE is a broad term for Fairy and could as easily be used as replacement for Kithain... so the fact that "Goblin' is the Kith that needs correcting is kind of silly? The whole game has things like this, there are fewer Kiths that are directly tied to a particular manifestation of fairy folklore than use some broad concept and decide to winnow it down to one thing(Pooka conversely go the other way)

                      However.. HobGoblin does have an actual folkloric meaning that your attempt to "Fix" things to make them "more in line" with Folklore you've completely missed. Hob=Hearth. Goblin=fairy. Hearth Fairy.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                        It's amazing what kind of epiphanies you can have on the toilet...

                        I just thought of a way to introduce Hobgoblins into the game, by making them a Kith about overcoming social prejudices. In this case, the esteemed nobility (i.e Elves) choosing to mingle with the lowly commoners (i.e Goblins) and producing offspring with them (i.e Hobgoblins)!

                        Seriously, it's a game about holding on to childhood innocence and keeping the dream alive. Why haven't we seen a Forbidden Romance style character, yet!?
                        GTMA. Perhaps, oh, 10, 15 years ago I did this. Hold on.... let me see if I can find the file...

                        Found it!

                        It was an old project for a D&D-type world that stalled when the HD died and I lost my maps, but I still have many of the write-ups:
                        Kheder, also known as Hobgoblins
                        While the creation of the goblin races is theorized to have been the result of some calamitous accident, the birth of the kheder was quite planned, and relatively recent in history. The facts surrounding the founding of this race are quite well-known among most elves, more civilized peoples, and those in frequent contact with the kheder. At the height of the raging wars sparked by the Arrival of Sebran, the okthil unveiled what was to be their grandest insult to the surface elves. It was generally known that the goblin races and humans cannot interbreed, but the okthil had discovered that goblins and elves DID mix. Using the same dark magics they used on their own rejects to create mutant servitors and warriors, the okthil developed developed a cross between the two races. Calling them hobgoblins (for "hob" means elf), they commanded their creations to march into battle with their hated elven fore-bearers. Their creations laughed at the idea. This annoyed their creators to no end, but the hobgoblins proved to be surprisingly resourceful, and though many died, the bulk of them escaped the Middle Realms for the Outer Realms above. The okthil did not pursue them, but rather let slip what they were, and though their full plan was a failure, they still delight today at the outrage many elves feel at the very existence of the kheder.
                        The kheder have grown and spread over the centuries since, more prolific than their elven cousins but less so than their other half. They took on the name of the greatest of their leaders in the rebellion against the okthil, though many still refer to them as hobgoblins. They combine many of the best elements of both their progenitor races, with less of the worst. The beauty of elves and the earthiness of goblins, lacking the constant fear and treachery that seem innate to the latter, filled instead with a joy for life and freedom. They seem more approachable to humans and many others, not having quite the ethereal quality elves do. Their lust for life scares some, but endears them to others. Most elves, even those who have accepted the saikal, have feelings ranging from complete hatred to disdain for the kheder. The hobgoblins have never let this bother them in the least.
                        Kheder average between four and five feet tall, with males and females being roughly equal in this regard. They are lithe and wiry, physically and aesthetically more resembling elves than goblins, but with enough characteristics of each to make their ancestry unquestionable; the okthil wanted to leave the hated surface elves no possibility of denying or mistaking the truth. Their arms are slightly longer proportionately than those of elves, their legs subtly but not overly bowed, their fingers also longer. Their skin is smooth like elven skin, but ranges in coloration from a rich, deep, dark green to a warm honey color, to a lustrous mahogany. Striations and markings occasionally arise in the form of tasteful stripes or patterns. Their faces are less angular than those of elves, fuller, with a slightly larger nose and mouth. The front teeth are sharp, but mixed with molars in the back, and their lower tusks only occasionally jut out. When they do, it still tends to lend character more than viciousness to the face. Their hair comes in all of the shades available to both goblins and elves, thicker and tougher than elven hair but not the coarse covering of goblins. Males and females both, like goblins, can grow hair on their cheeks, and often carefully trim and cultivate this growth, as a dwarf might his beard or a lazean her sideburns. The kheder eye is capable of both infravision and night vision. Unlike the goblin eye, their is a distinct iris visible; the area around is a dark, bold color, the iris is slightly lighter and more luminescent, while the pupil is a very light shade of the rest of the eye, and shows as purple usually when seen through infravision. Their ears are longer than those of elves but less exaggerated than goblins', and they possess the same ridges on their fingers as goblins do for improving grip. Kheder also have inherited some latent magical abilities that may develop with time and exceptional training, and a resistance to poisons. They are also remarkably difficult to control or invade mentally, which would explain the mistake the okthil made in their design. Kheder are carefree, intelligent beings, wandering Ndiaye in nomadic families, alone, or with bands of other beings. They neither hate nor fear their goblin and elven ancestors, pitying each alike for different reasons.
                        Anyhow, the premise was, you take goblins and elves and mash them together and you got something... unexpected and different.

                        I love how that can work, parallel evolution!

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