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What if the Setting recognized the Sidhe as the badguys?

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  • What if the Setting recognized the Sidhe as the badguys?

    So the books really downplay the horror of the Sidhe basically they came back to the world from beyond, stole mortal Bodies and banished their souls to Arcadia. And then they warred and conquered the Fae who remained on Earth.

    Some have even theorized they intended to have the Sidhe as the badguys of the series in the older drafts. So what if we just make that change to the setting? What if we portray the other changelings in a similar situation to other supernaturals, in that they are warring against a rival faction, this case the Sidhe. So the setting would be the Sidhe Commoner war never ended but the Sidhe are winning. The game would be about hiding from the Sidhe, fighting the Sidhe, or coming to terms with the Sidhe.

    In such a game the Sidhe would be more like the more sinister Supernaturals, like Vampires and Demons, while the Changelings are more Neutral like Wraiths and Mages. And werewolves would not be as friendly with the Changelings as in standard games treating Sidhe as Soul Stealers, but other fae would be treated as neutral.

    This give some more goals in the game.

    Maybe Fomorians are just the eldest Fae or like in Dark Age Fae just one camp. Like maybe the Nobles kept the 4 Seasons Seemings?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I can't really say much about the setting in such a scenario, but from a logistical/development standpoint, I think early in the second edition, you'd have seen a Players Guide to the Sidhe (similar to Vampire's original Sabbat book) that would've introduced the Houses, with discussion of how each views commoners.

    Also, the commoner political set up might've been a bit more dynamic than what was presented.


    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #3
      I think that would require you to retcon the entire concept of the Sidhe.

      Remember, Changelings are the living embodiment of mortal dreams. And when it comes to the Sidhe, they embody the dream of nobility, leadership, grace, wisdom, perfection and (most of all) superiority. Sidhe do not merely claim to be better than everybody else, they ARE better than everybody else. They were literally born to rule, and The Dreaming fully supports them in this situation. Once they returned to the world, they demanded their holdings back, and even though the peasants said "no," The Dreaming said "of course, your majesty!"

      In this hypothetical situation, we would have to look to the Autumn Sidhe for answers on how to handle a setting in which the Arcadian Sidhe are the villains. The way I imagine it, the Autumn Sidhe are the only Kith that The Dreaming wouldn't instantly turn against for trying to oppose their Arcadian counterparts. At that point, it becomes a land dispute between nobles, and to the victor goes the spoils.

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      • #4
        The Dreaming complied with the Sidhe but it didn't turn on the commoners. The Dreaming after all didn't instantly turn on the commoners during the War, the Sidhe had to first win the war.

        But yes I imagine the Autumn Sidhe would be a big factor, but they would be a minority compared to a conquering Host. But in this Setting the Sidhe might also include the Fomorians.

        Someone else suggested to me maybe the Fomorians could be the mortal souls of the hijacked bodies. Then I thought that would make the oldest Fomorians possibly the first Dreamers who the Tuatha met. It really turns Changeling History on its head.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post

          But yes I imagine the Autumn Sidhe would be a big factor, but they would be a minority compared to a conquering Host.
          Well, I was trying to imply that the commoners rally under the Autumn Sidhe's banner. In doing so, they gain the ability to rebel against the Arcadians, but it would be an Autumn who The Dreaming acknowledges as the victor in this situation.

          Actually, now that I think about it, you could tweak the lore so that only the Autumn Sidhe are in support of the Entitled Commoner idea. Elevating the other kiths to nobility as a reward for exemplary service in the war against the Arcadian Sidhe, while the Arcadians themselves would hotly deny the very idea of elevating commoners to such a station.

          At that point, it becomes a story about Meritocracy vs Monarchy.

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          • #6
            My idea though is the war never ended. Or it ended but the Player's group lost so they are on the lamb constantly from the ruling Fae.


            It is a time for great deeds!

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            • #7
              Recognized as villains? Seems that the powerful presence of the Sidhe prevents widespread rejection of their rule. So many Sidhe powers and the powers that are available with the influx of glamour that comes with the Sidhe can re-write history. Cronus, Naming and Sovereign, along with the Sidhe birthrights make them nigh-impossible to soil their reputation to the masses (mortal, prodigal or fae).

              Those who oppose them will always be seen as conspiracy theorists by the majority. Of course playing a crew of characters that know "the truth" would make a fun game.

              Last edited by MythAdvocate; 06-25-2019, 09:52 AM.


              “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
              Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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              • #8
                The Sidhe are a medieval dream. That's so much of the problem. Changelings are connected to freedom, creativity, passion, idealism, and wonder, at least in this game. Changeling: the Lost has it's points and virtues and beats the Vampire, werewolf, and Mage reboots by miles, but C:tD has its own profound delights. But the Sidhe are a major and limiting issue. In many ways they bring a 19th century conservative rejection of modernity into the game. The Sidhe are totally bound up in pre-Modern forms of power and hierarchy and stagnate the changeling society. In many ways they are Banality personified.

                In many ways they remind me of Fantasy Authors that are so impressed by Tolkien that they have to make every fantasy story a pseudo-Medieval pseudo-European, rehash. The right-wing politics showing up in millions of replays of the Jacobite Rebellions only the Bonnie Prince wins. Well Tolkien was a wonderful guy but is politics were trash, his vision of a technology free England was as unrealistic as it was reactionary. And Bonnie Prince Charlie was a drunken fascist and about the only monarch worse than the House of Hanover available to the Brits. The Sidhe are inherently unable to rule well, they will always be a force of Banality until they drop both the monarchy and the "noble as rulers" games.

                Heck, even the area book for the South had the Changelings in one part of the South inventing a new progressive form of government.

                For the Sidhe to be heroes, they need a viable ideal. Feudalism isn't it.
                Last edited by Astromancer; 06-26-2019, 03:19 AM.

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                • #9
                  Astromancer Sidhe don't merely embody the dream of feudal rule. They also embody the dreams of superior bloodlines, and the literally God given right to rule. They do not claim to be superior, they ARE superior. Or at least, the belief that they are superior is what spawned them into existence in the first place. They originate from a time in which rebelling against the government was a crime akin to heresy. The monarchies of the time carried the support of the church, and to speak out against the crown was effectively speaking out against the clergy as well.

                  Why would the Sidhe (who were already perfect beings to begin with) feel the need, let alone the desire, to change themselves in order to make the commoners feel more comfortable? Peasants were not born to govern, and their opinions on the matter are irrelevant to one who's authority has been ordained by a higher power.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
                    Astromancer Sidhe don't merely embody the dream of feudal rule. They also embody the dreams of superior bloodlines, and the literally God given right to rule. They do not claim to be superior, they ARE superior. Or at least, the belief that they are superior is what spawned them into existence in the first place. They originate from a time in which rebelling against the government was a crime akin to heresy. The monarchies of the time carried the support of the church, and to speak out against the crown was effectively speaking out against the clergy as well.

                    Why would the Sidhe (who were already perfect beings to begin with) feel the need, let alone the desire, to change themselves in order to make the commoners feel more comfortable? Peasants were not born to govern, and their opinions on the matter are irrelevant to one who's authority has been ordained by a higher power.
                    I don't say the Sidhe want to change. I say the Changelings either need to change the Sidhe or be rid of them. The Sidhe are an old and corrupt dream. If the Sidhe stay locked in 19th century reactionary politics and ideals they will either destroy the modern world or be destroyed by it. Both the Balor and Leathaun would love that. But few of the Sidhe outside of House Liam would care if the world died as long as their party went on. Typical of human nobles as well as the fae.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Astromancer View Post

                      I don't say the Sidhe want to change. I say the Changelings either need to change the Sidhe or be rid of them. The Sidhe are an old and corrupt dream. If the Sidhe stay locked in 19th century reactionary politics and ideals they will either destroy the modern world or be destroyed by it. Both the Balor and Leathaun would love that. But few of the Sidhe outside of House Liam would care if the world died as long as their party went on. Typical of human nobles as well as the fae.

                      And looking at it from their point of view, they would be completely in the right of it. What species in the entire history of this planet has willfully chosen to let itself go extinct so that a different species can survive? The modern world is killing The Dreaming, the very source of life itself for all Fey. If mortals didn't embrace secular rationalism, the Changeling Way would never have been necessary, and the Fey would not be in the dire state they are in now. Purging the world of Autumn People and sparing true Dreamers may be the only way to prevent the Long Winter, and pull their kind back from the brink of annihilation.

                      Those who stand with mortals know deep down that their efforts are for naught. The only thing they're doing is prolonging the inevitable decline. Unless they do something drastic, their kind is going to die out. And unlike the Sidhe, none of them seem to be coming up with tenable solutions to the problem.

                      As it currently stands now, it's quite difficult to paint the Sidhe as being in the wrong, from a Fey's point of view. Sure, if you're a mortal, they sound like bad news. But mortals don't have to worry about the death of their entire species if they stop believing in old superstitions.
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 06-25-2019, 10:29 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Well actually it’s more the rise of Monotheism and the taming of the Wilderness that causes the Changeling way to be Necessary, and the Plagues also helped with culminating Banality as a thing. In Dark Age Fae churches were their kryptonite a and often a source of banes. Only later did rationality further solidify the dying of Glamour and the rise of Banality.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          Well actually it’s more the rise of Monotheism and the taming of the Wilderness that causes the Changeling way to be Necessary, and the Plagues also helped with culminating Banality as a thing. In Dark Age Fae churches were their kryptonite a and often a source of banes. Only later did rationality further solidify the dying of Glamour and the rise of Banality.
                          Dogma, the nastiest and most subversive aspect of the Weaver in my view of things.

                          As far as the Sidhe and their role in Fae culture, I see it like this:

                          The Tuatha's binding of the Fomorians coincided with the Weavers binding of the Wyrm, and started the problem. Binding the forces of Primordialism within the fabric of the Dreaming is a decidedly Weaver-ish undertaking, and has prevented the natural cycles of spirit and matter. Like a tourniquet, though meant to stop bleeding, if left on too long causes rot.

                          The Sidhe live on the structures created by the Tuatha de Dannan. The dreams of nobility are a sort of placeholder to keep the ancient wards healthy (and the Dark asleep in their prisons), with the Houses meant to keep the bindings with tradition, heroism and grace (in Mage terms- Dynamic, Pattern and Questing Essence). But a great many Sidhe fled their duties, and left their lands unguarded and their people unprotected.

                          Now the Sidhe have returned to find that in their absence and neglect, the Dark has seeped into the world, and is poisoning the Dreaming. Horrible Nightmares once again have gained major footholds on the world through mans nastiest and greediest dreams, leaving Banality in its wake. They are panicking, trying to re-establish their holdings and make a stand. But they have forgotten much and are painfully anachronistic.

                          Few of the Sidhe remember much of this, with what they do remember being muddled up with stories and traditions.
                          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 06-26-2019, 01:00 PM.


                          “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
                          Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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                          • #14
                            When we were kids, were we so critical about fantasies of princesses and knights in shining armor?. When did we become so political about this stuff?

                            Personally, I think this thread shows a very mature way of thinking that implies knowledge about causes and consequences, about the nuances of right and wrong, and a decent understanding of worldbuild...and Changeling isn't about that.

                            Changeling it's about that time when we hadn't to consider if Disney classics were an apology to monarchy, Santa Claus a symbol of consumerism, etc.

                            That time when we were "impressed by Tolkien" too, before we started to think in the implications of how the races are depicted. Being impressed in such an irrational way, w/o pondering if the morals presented there are really good to build a real life society...it's all that Glamour it's supposed to represent.

                            Or at least that's my opinion.

                            I'm glad that Shide exist and are the way they are...not that I would despise a game that presented them as the Bad Guys (it's easy enough), but I get why they weren't represented like that.
                            Last edited by Aleph; 07-01-2019, 10:29 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                              When we were kids, were we so critical about fantasies of princesses and knights in shining armor?. When did we become so political about this stuff?

                              Personally, I think this thread shows a very mature way of thinking that implies knowledge about causes and consequences, about the nuances of right and wrong, and a decent understanding of worldbuild...and Changeling isn't about that.

                              Changeling it's about that time when we hadn't to consider if Disney classics were an apology to monarchy, Santa Claus a symbol of consumerism, etc.

                              That time when we were "impressed by Tolkien" too, before we started to think in the implications of how the races are depicted. Being impressed in such an irrational way, w/o pondering if the morals presented there are really good to build a real life society...it's all that Glamour it's supposed to represent.

                              Or at least that's my opinion.

                              I'm glad that Shide exist and are the way they are...not that I would despise a game that presented them as the Bad Guys (it's easy enough), but I get why they weren't represented like that.

                              Very well said, and I believe it provides further incentive to play a Childling character. Most people I've seen talking about the game on youtube seem to be opposed to the idea of playing one, for whatever reason.

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