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What if the Setting recognized the Sidhe as the badguys?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

    I know, I was just poking fun at the idea, too.




    I learned in school that there are different types of parasites. At least one of which (symbiotic) is actually beneficial to the host.
    Symbiotes are not parasites they are symbiotes by definition. And the Changing way alters the nature of the soul. You are as much Fae as you are human.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Possessed View Post


      So can we really condamn the Sidhe without knowing the fate of the souls they take? In my opinion we cannot. Those souls may get it better than any on Autumn lands or they may have it worse, but DA: Fae does heavily imply that they become Changelings, similarly to how the Fae left to replace them do. If DA: Fae then is taken as proof the Sidhe way of doing things creates two Changelings for the price of one, the Sidhe and the Changeling that is grown from the human soul in the Dreaming while the Changeling way fuses two souls together to create one composite being.
      If they do become Fae themselves, then I would agree that seems to be more of a blessing than a curse. But if they remain human, then being sent to Arcadia would be a living nightmare. First of all, anybody who's familiar with traditional folk lore knows that the Fae are ass holes, and there is a very good reason why parents used Fairy Tales to scare their children into behaving properly.

      Second of all, we can assume from the way the Sidhe conduct themselves that Arcadian society is still very much trapped in the 1500's. Possibly even more primitive than that, depending on how far back they stagnated. Any human from the modern world who gets thrown into it is going to be in for the world's biggest culture shock, as they struggle to cope with laws and regulations that haven't been in effect for hundreds of years.

      So to reiterate, being sent to Arcadia might be tolerable, if you transform into a Fae yourself. But if you remain a human, you would be scrambling for the nearest exit.

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      • #33
        Its not a blessing if you get your life taken from you without your consent and someone else steals your wife or husband and family.


        It is a time for great deeds!

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

          Fae are ass holes
          Exactly. This is my point. It applies to both Commoners and the Sidhe. Hence neither will actually see how the Sidhe possess humans as evil or immoral nor do they see any problems in forcing soul fusion to mortals. It is only mentioned that it is critisized by some for the potential destruction of the human soul unnecessarily. Note the bolded part. It is not the destruction of the soul the Changelings are against but that they see it as unnecessary due to Changeling Way.

          Like said the Fae concept of moral is different from ours. The Escheat’s Right of Life explicitly mentions it applying to Fae lives, it does nothing to protect mortals. Same is True of the rest of the laws even Right of Dream only forbids messing with human creative process and has nothing to do with actually protecting humans, same with Right of Ignorance which is meant to keep mortals unaware of the Fae. Neither Court has any real probihition against harming mortals either. You keep looking this far too much from the mortal perspective and too little from the Fae one. Remember Fae are assholes.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
            Its not a blessing if you get your life taken from you without your consent and someone else steals your wife or husband and family.

            Meh, you (allegedly) gain immortality, magical powers, and the freedom to experience the joys of life for the first time over and over again. Sounds like a pretty sweet bargain... assuming that's how it actually works out.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


              Meh, you (allegedly) gain immortality, magical powers, and the freedom to experience the joys of life for the first time over and over again. Sounds like a pretty sweet bargain... assuming that's how it actually works out.
              For some, but a lot of people don't want to have some selfish Faery Prince bang their wife and not give a crap about their kids, meanwhile a number of fates could await you, what if you become something akin to a Redcap and in the real world you were Jason Mamoa?


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #37
                I always play sidhe, but it seems like other people always want the sidhe to be badguys. It’s like all WoD players want to “fight the power”, but they don’t understand that, despite being leaders of the changelings, the sidhe are not the power. (Mortals are) Before I get too far into that diatribe, I will say that there is plenty of room for sidhe to be villains of any chronicle.. in many ways, the sidhe represent the best and worst of changelings, but why should any changeling be relegated to being “the badguys” when all changelings have the potential to be both great heroes and great villains. I mean, there are plenty of stories of evil and overbearing lords, but wouldn’t a story of an evil craftsman (boggin) be as interesting and probably more unique? Isn’t it a little disrespectful of the other kith to say that only the sidhe can be “badguys” among the changelings?

                I also want to push back a little on the idea of the sidhe being the embodiment of feudal fantasy.. the sidhe are the embodiment of romantic fantasy. The seelie sidhe actually don’t have a big problem with ideas like constitutional monarchies and republics and the like.. High king David created the parliament of dreams, which is the actual governing body of Concordia, and sidhe in Concordia are generally respected more for their title rather than their land. Meanwhile, oaths are important to all changelings, not just the sidhe.. so feudalism, government based on land ownership and oaths, isn’t part of being sidhe any more than it’s part of being any other changeling. On the other hand, epics, quests, romances, great betrayals and acts self-sacrifice and heroism.. that’s what makes a sidhe.. they are all about romantic idealism.

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                • #38
                  Nobody says anything about only the Sidhe can be badguys. That is a bit strawmany.

                  Yes yes we all know Mortals outnumber everyone, yawn.


                  But my basic assumption for this scenario is the Sidhe are even more sinister and overtly the Antagonist then the normal setting, they would also probably have different crunch.


                  It is a time for great deeds!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Nobody says anything about only the Sidhe can be badguys. That is a bit strawmany.

                    Yes yes we all know Mortals outnumber everyone, yawn.


                    But my basic assumption for this scenario is the Sidhe are even more sinister and overtly the Antagonist then the normal setting, they would also probably have different crunch.
                    Uhmm.. you’ve suggested that the sidhe should be turned into complete villains while also saying that other changelings.. I’ll let others decide whether my comment was “strawmany”. I’m also not suggesting that mortals are “the power” because they are numerous.. I’m suggesting that mortals are “the power” because changelings need mortals in order to survive.. a single mortal who is easily inspired can be very good for changelings, while a single mortal who refuses to dream can be very dangerous to an entire freehold of changelings. To vampires, individual mortals might be food supply, to werewolves they are flunkies, to mages a single mortal is an inconvenience, to a changeling a single mortal could mean life or death.

                    But for the sake of furthering the discussion, the current changeling paradigm already supports sidhe as being great villains. The Ailil hang out with Nephandi, Sabbat, and BSD’s.. do you think they somehow aren’t evil? The Baylor hang with Formorii and like to permakill fae, and the Leanhaun abuse mortals and partake in psychic vampirism. If you want to make the sidhe “more villainous”, just have the Unseelie and/ or Winter Court take all the most influential positions.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post
                      Isn’t it a little disrespectful of the other kith to say that only the sidhe can be “badguys” among the changelings?

                      I also want to push back a little on the idea of the sidhe being the embodiment of feudal fantasy.. the sidhe are the embodiment of romantic fantasy.

                      1 - Of course it is, because it sounds like the players have forgotten that REDCAPS are a thing.

                      2 - Actually, feudal fantasy is exactly it. Remember, the Sidhe were actually present during the time of feudal dynasties, and they abandoned the Autumn World while they were still in place. I highly doubt that anybody who lived back in that day and age saw their existence as anything one might describe as romantic. Remember, that was an age in which the concept of marriage was more of a political maneuver, rather than having anything to do with actual relationships. Combine that with plagues, widespread poverty, lack of proper medical knowledge, and a whole slew of other problems that would dramatically shorten your life expectancy.

                      The Sidhe who did adapt to the modern world became the Autumn Sidhe, and their Arcadian counterparts view them as corrupted, and an insult to everything the Sidhe stand for. The Arcadians only took human hosts because the only other choice available to them was death. And many Sidhe (like those of House Aesin) hate the very idea of Entitled Commoners.
                      Last edited by Nyrufa; 07-08-2019, 04:55 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post

                        If you want to make the sidhe “more villainous”, just have the Unseelie and/ or Winter Court take all the most influential positions.
                        Why does everybody think the Unseelie Court are the defacto villains? You know what the Unseelie stand for? Breaking from tradition and embracing freedom. That sounds like the exact kind of court somebody who's trying to oppose tyrannical Sidhe (with their old world views) would be eager to join up.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                          Why does everybody think the Unseelie Court are the defacto villains? You know what the Unseelie stand for? Breaking from tradition and embracing freedom. That sounds like the exact kind of court somebody who's trying to oppose tyrannical Sidhe (with their old world views) would be eager to join up.
                          Damn right! I think the corrupting influence of stasis is the cause of all that is rotten. Cycles are what the fae are all about. Without winter, there is no spring. Doesn't mean its bad. The good guy/bad guy paradigm is ridiculous in storytelling anyway.
                          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-08-2019, 05:46 PM.


                          “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
                          Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                            Why does everybody think the Unseelie Court are the defacto villains? You know what the Unseelie stand for? Breaking from tradition and embracing freedom. That sounds like the exact kind of court somebody who's trying to oppose tyrannical Sidhe (with their old world views) would be eager to join up.
                            My issue is that most people don’t even seem to remember that the unseelie court and the Winter Court even exist, let alone do they view them as “defacto villains”. To be clear, I don’t know enough about th actual unseelie court to really call them villains.. I definitely call the Winter Court villains though and they kinda seem to hide behind the unseelie court. As far as I know, the actual unseelie court is just part of the cycle, while the Winter Court seeks to end the cycle. The Winter court “breaks from tradition and embraces freedom” in much the same way as serial killers and mass murderers do.

                            The villain/hero paradigm may be ridiculous, but the struggle to maintain ridiculous paradigms is what changeling is all about.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post

                              My issue is that most people don’t even seem to remember that the unseelie court and the Winter Court even exist, let alone do they view them as “defacto villains”. To be clear, I don’t know enough about th actual unseelie court to really call them villains.. I definitely call the Winter Court villains though and they kinda seem to hide behind the unseelie court. As far as I know, the actual unseelie court is just part of the cycle, while the Winter Court seeks to end the cycle. The Winter court “breaks from tradition and embraces freedom” in much the same way as serial killers and mass murderers do.

                              The villain/hero paradigm may be ridiculous, but the struggle to maintain ridiculous paradigms is what changeling is all about.

                              Well, one of the reasons for the Unseelie Court's bad reputation is the fact that they have practically "abandoned the Dreaming." Their reasoning for doing so is that they feel the Dreaming abandoned them first, so they are not under any obligation to continue serving it. They also abide by the outlook that as long as there are humans in the world, there will always be Dreamers, and so they are far more careless about the usage of Glamour than the Seelie Court are. Their more traditionalist counterparts prefer to hoard Glamour, and only use it when they feel there is a legitimate need for it.

                              Another reason for why they might be seen as villains stems from their connection to the Shadow Court, which is a secret faction operating from within the Unseelie Court.

                              Although the Shadow Court wishes to restore the tradition of ruling by cycles, it contains a large number of House Balor and Thallain among its ranks. Since these Kiths are typically viewed as monsters and servants of the Fomorians, it's understandable why players would jump to the conclusion that they must have malicious intentions.

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                              • #45
                                Setting as written there really is no way for Royalists (be they Sidhe or Loyalist Commoners) to be anything but villains - you don’t ABANDON YOUR SUBJECTS, then come back expecting to still have a right to rule.

                                If they’re meant to be anything other than the worst, the history needs an overhaul so that the Sidhe have a more Arthurian tragic-noble fall, or sacrificed themselves so the Changeling Way Ritual would be possible, etc - something that makes belief in their leadership a remotely rational moral position, instead of making those who fled to Arcadia and left their subjects behind the most craven of worthless cowards, as is currently the inevitable conclusion of the canon history.


                                Check out my expansion to the Realm of Brass and Shadow

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