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What if the Setting recognized the Sidhe as the badguys?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post

    My issue is that most people don’t even seem to remember that the unseelie court and the Winter Court even exist, let alone do they view them as “defacto villains”. To be clear, I don’t know enough about th actual unseelie court to really call them villains.. I definitely call the Winter Court villains though and they kinda seem to hide behind the unseelie court. As far as I know, the actual unseelie court is just part of the cycle, while the Winter Court seeks to end the cycle. The Winter court “breaks from tradition and embraces freedom” in much the same way as serial killers and mass murderers do.

    The villain/hero paradigm may be ridiculous, but the struggle to maintain ridiculous paradigms is what changeling is all about.
    Here is a potential project. Seasonal courts as of spiritual houses. Something more in line with nature, the moon and such. Perhaps allowing for Spirit Links ala Nunehi and Garou.

    Perhaps seasonal houses would make an alternative for the Autumn Sidhe and Commoner leaders during the interregnum. Kind of like totems.
    Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-08-2019, 10:15 PM.


    “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
    Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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    • #47
      Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post

      Here is a potential project. Seasonal courts as of spiritual houses. Something more in line with nature, the moon and such. Perhaps allowing for Spirit Links ala Nunehi and Garou.

      Perhaps seasonal houses would make an alternative for the Autumn Sidhe and Commoner leaders during the interregnum. Kind of like totems.
      That's a cool idea, Seasonal Houses instead of Seasonal Courts!

      I do feel that after the Nobles left, there totally would be Commoners who want to raise up new nobility. So the game doesn't change completely you don't need a lot of them but I feel like there would be at least some new nobles rising up.




      But I got the basic idea for this thread from that Walk through the Dreaming Podcast, where they said they believe early Drafts of the game had the Sidhe take up a more prominently antagonistic role.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #48
        Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
        Setting as written there really is no way for Royalists (be they Sidhe or Loyalist Commoners) to be anything but villains - you don’t ABANDON YOUR SUBJECTS, then come back expecting to still have a right to rule.
        While that should be the truth of any respectable leaders, there are countless instances of mortals citing their claim to a particular territory just because their ancestors lived there hundreds of years ago. Once again, it's important to remember not just who the Fey are, but what they are as well. The Fey did not start out as humans, they started out as living dreams, sentient concepts, and physical aspirations that mortals believed in at the time. They did not interpret the world in the same way mortals do, because that is not the mentality which gave them life.

        The Changeling Way allowed them to develop such perspective, however. Becoming half human expanded their horizons and gave them a shield against the Banality which threatened to destroy them. Unfortunately for Changeling society, the majority of Sidhe refused to partake in this ritual, and just snatched the bodies of the closest mortal they could get their hands on. Arcadian Sidhe are the closest thing to a "true" Fey that the Kithain have to offer, because they remain uncorrupted by the influence of mortal society. Autumn Sidhe did allow themselves to merge with human souls, and the idea of such a transformation is appalling to their Arcadian cousins.


        In the grand scheme of things, you're right. The mortals of the Autumn World no longer believe in the same ideals which gave birth to Arcadia in the first place, and the Arcadian Sidhe who still adhere to them are pushing a very large boulder up a very steep hill. But so long as they continue to cling to the purity of their Fairy souls, they are fundamentally incapable of realizing that fact.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post
          Setting as written there really is no way for Royalists (be they Sidhe or Loyalist Commoners) to be anything but villains - you don’t ABANDON YOUR SUBJECTS, then come back expecting to still have a right to rule.

          If they’re meant to be anything other than the worst, the history needs an overhaul so that the Sidhe have a more Arthurian tragic-noble fall, or sacrificed themselves so the Changeling Way Ritual would be possible, etc - something that makes belief in their leadership a remotely rational moral position, instead of making those who fled to Arcadia and left their subjects behind the most craven of worthless cowards, as is currently the inevitable conclusion of the canon history.

          The high king activated an oath and called them all back to Arcadia “to solve the problem of the sundering and upcoming shattering”. The Gwydion simply couldn’t ignore their oath. The Dougal knew that they would be instrumental in solving the problem. Only house Fiona could resist, because lady Fiona was in love with a mortal which activates her house’s boon. Houses Eiluned, Liam and Fiona all tried to make sure their domains would be in good hands while they were gone.. as they were forced away against their will and they did everything they could to get back. As soon as possible, I don’t really see how you could view these houses as villains.

          Some parents need to leave their kids sometimes, so they hire a babysitter. Does that mean the babysitter has the right to keep the kid when the parent comes back? Is the parent “evil” because they left their kid and expected to get the kid back when they came home?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post


            The high king activated an oath and called them all back to Arcadia “to solve the problem of the sundering and upcoming shattering”. The Gwydion simply couldn’t ignore their oath. The Dougal knew that they would be instrumental in solving the problem. Only house Fiona could resist, because lady Fiona was in love with a mortal which activates her house’s boon. Houses Eiluned, Liam and Fiona all tried to make sure their domains would be in good hands while they were gone.. as they were forced away against their will and they did everything they could to get back. As soon as possible, I don’t really see how you could view these houses as villains.

            Some parents need to leave their kids sometimes, so they hire a babysitter. Does that mean the babysitter has the right to keep the kid when the parent comes back? Is the parent “evil” because they left their kid and expected to get the kid back when they came home?
            We aren’t talking about baby sitter keeping the kids, we’re talking about abandoned kids who grew up to follow that analogy.


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            • #51
              Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post

              Some parents need to leave their kids sometimes, so they hire a babysitter. Does that mean the babysitter has the right to keep the kid when the parent comes back? Is the parent “evil” because they left their kid and expected to get the kid back when they came home?

              Parents who hire baby sitters are gone for maybe a couple hours at most.

              Parents who walk out on their kids for decades, only to show up unannounced and act like everything can go back to normal is a completely different story.

              My ancestors were Arch Dukes of France. Does that mean I have the right to fly there, demand they hand over the crown jewels, and declare me the rightful leader of their country?

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              • #52
                Also do people feel the Sidhe are intended to rule lands and Fae that are outside the Kithain? The Nunnehi for instance don't have the Noble commoner divide and Turtle Island was their Territory, and the Sidhe even allied with them rather than ruled them. And the Merfolk are Nobles themselves, and the Menehune have their own Nobles.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by glamourweaver View Post

                  We aren’t talking about baby sitter keeping the kids, we’re talking about abandoned kids who grew up to follow that analogy.
                  In the analogy, the commoners are the babysitters, not the kids. As we know, fae are immortal beings who perceive time differently from mortals. We also know that the sidhe, during the resurgence, had no memory of the time that had passed in Arcadia, so as far as they knew, they had left one day to solve a problem for the sake of all fae, and they came back the next day to find some commoners were claiming their domains and titles.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Gothik_Knight View Post

                    In the analogy, the commoners are the babysitters, not the kids. As we know, fae are immortal beings who perceive time differently from mortals. We also know that the sidhe, during the resurgence, had no memory of the time that had passed in Arcadia, so as far as they knew, they had left one day to solve a problem for the sake of all fae, and they came back the next day to find some commoners were claiming their domains and titles.
                    I mean we get the jist that they basically were terrified of Reincarnating and instead chose to continue their current incarnation... but the consequences of that is they will be in theory gone after this life.


                    Edit:


                    Also what about when we start running out of Arcadian Sidhe? Maybe that should be another thread... but its bound to eventually happen, unless there are mysteries at play keeping them streaming in.
                    Last edited by Eldagusto; 07-10-2019, 06:54 AM. Reason: more


                    It is a time for great deeds!

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                      Also what about when we start running out of Arcadian Sidhe? Maybe that should be another thread... but its bound to eventually happen, unless there are mysteries at play keeping them streaming in.
                      They might be reincarnated anyway, and just not remember. The Dreaming is endless right? And that means that there could be a numberless host of fae spirits dwelling in alternate timelines, fantasy worlds and other realms of legend. So why would they run out?

                      For my own games, I deal with this as either the Sidhe become Autumn Sidhe over time, become shadow fae (a type of Legendary Plasmic) upon their death or take part in dark rituals that re-bind their fae soul to a mortal child.

                      Similarly, in my home games fae of all kiths killed by Cold Iron become plasmic entities in the Shadowlands, where they maintain some potent holdings. As plasmics they appear as the more pale and deathly fae of legends and may have some connection to Thallain.
                      Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-10-2019, 02:55 PM.


                      “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
                      Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post

                        They might be reincarnated anyway, and just not remember. The Dreaming is endless right? And that means that there could be a numberless host of fae spirits dwelling in alternate timelines, fantasy worlds and other realms of legend. So why would they run out?

                        For my own games, I deal with this as either the Sidhe become Autumn Sidhe over time, become shadow fae (a type of Legendary Plasmic) upon their death or take part in dark rituals that re-bind their fae soul to a mortal child.

                        Similarly, in my home games fae of all kiths killed by Cold Iron become plasmic entities in the Shadowlands, where they maintain some potent holdings. As plasmics they appear as the more pale and deathly fae of legends and may have some connection to Thallain.


                        See I think it dilutes the danger and consequences of actions if the Sidhe just reincarnate like normal without becoming Autumn Sidhe first. I had two basic Ideas, the Sidhe either become Clarichaun (and other commoners upon death) or they become Fae Ghosts. Though them becoming ghosts after being killed with Cold Iron seems a problem because Cold Iron Obliterates their soul.


                        It is a time for great deeds!

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                          See I think it dilutes the danger and consequences of actions if the Sidhe just reincarnate like normal without becoming Autumn Sidhe first. I had two basic Ideas, the Sidhe either become Clarichaun (and other commoners upon death) or they become Fae Ghosts. Though them becoming ghosts after being killed with Cold Iron seems a problem because Cold Iron Obliterates their soul.
                          Legendary Plasmics are anomalous. They are not Wraiths, but something else entirely. There are many legends of faerie like beings whom Iron is not an issue, though these are monstrous and very alien beings. Banshees are an obvious addition to this, but the Cailleach (death hag), Jarnvidjur (troll hags), Sirens, Tenebrae (Greek/Roman death spirits) and assorted Psychopomps all fit the bill for creatures of both Death and Glamour. Some of these creatures might also be Kinain or Faerie animals.

                          Of course, these creatures could "just" be Umbrood. Personally, I would treat such beings as Chimera with a "Nightmare Shield" that can be used to resist Banality and to soak Iron, and to cause Bedlam in Changelings. I would also say that such creatures could suck Glamour from the Pathos of Wraiths and Willpower from vamps.
                          Last edited by MythAdvocate; 07-11-2019, 08:37 AM.


                          “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
                          Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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                          • #58
                            I like to think that dead Arcadians are recruited by House Danaan, who pretty much spend all their time within the Dreaming and only interact with the Autumn World when they feel it's necessary.

                            As for those killed by Cold Iron, I also like the idea that House Beaumayn actually turn out to be right, and that death by such instruments purifies the soul of Banality, restoring them to how they were before they subjected themselves to the Changeling Way. The drawback is that they can not linger in the Autumn World anymore, and so they must retreat to the Deep Dreaming.

                            Of course, this is probably just be me wishing for a happy ending to what I feel is the most depressing game in the WoD franchise...

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                            • #59
                              Canonically, fae who die by cold iron become wraiths. Meaning the sluagh know about the Martyrs of Beltaine, since they were contacted by their furious wraiths after the Night of Iron Knives.

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                              • #60
                                Part of the Arcadian sidhe's problem is that they remained static while in Arcadia. Autumn sidhe haven't, partly because of how they were raised, partly from being merged with a human soul rather than kicking it out of body.

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