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  • #16
    Originally posted by Lian View Post


    (Which could include multiple dragon kiths, have they function as a society.. whether they are theirown thing like the Nunnehi nation etc).
    In my head, a Dragon Changeling would be so rare as to not merit its own sub kiths as the Nunnehi. Within the confines of C20 (I cant speak for previous editions, havent read them), the more glamorous something was, the less likely it was to survive, hence only tiny embers of Freeholds still being around. I felt dragons should run parallel to that, with the majority of them becoming lost in the Deep Dreaming, or just fading into obscurity, fading away to the ravages of Banality. I designed mine with a variety of directions to build around in order to adequately reflect the wide berth of dragons within folklore, but the key part of making a dragon changeling is making sure you reflect the sheer glamour power that a dragon has, while tempering that with a logical flaw. Dragons are almost always the "Big Bads" in folklore, but are sleeping giants, taking decades to make solid moves, but striking with incredible force when they do. So build diverse, build powerful, but also build with an equally massive flaw to keep them in place, and explain why there are so few around anymore. They're physically/naratively powerful, but there simply arent many around anymore. Explaining why that last sentence is true within Kith design is pretty pivotal to making a true dragon kith.

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    • #17
      Depending on your views of myth and fable, or how much you subscribe to Campbell, Freud or otherwise, a dragon could be symbolic of greed, fertility, or more. Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon, you know? Other times, "The Dragon" is a trope for the champion/second-in-command of the BBEG, the Vader to the Palpatine, the Walton Simons to the Bob Page, etc.

      Playing on those tropes, you could theoretically alter your Kithain with any of the core merits/flaws in order to represent the sort of story you are trying to tell. But as a full-on Kithbook...that may be somewhat of a stretch.

      As far as regional books go, the Indian subcontinent is one of the biggest blank spaces as far as Kithain lore goes. Yes, you have the Narakas as Adhene, and Eshu from that area...and that's about it. Ymmv over whether the Eshu being "Africa, the Middle East, and India" is a form of the "Sim Sim Salabim" Trope, but having rules for Devas/Asuras, as well as it being a crossroads for normal Kithain/Hsein would be an interesting melting pot, so to speak.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by RigelJ View Post

        In my head, a Dragon Changeling would be so rare as to not merit its own sub kiths as the Nunnehi. Within the confines of C20 (I cant speak for previous editions, havent read them), the more glamorous something was, the less likely it was to survive, hence only tiny embers of Freeholds still being around. I felt dragons should run parallel to that, with the majority of them becoming lost in the Deep Dreaming, or just fading into obscurity, fading away to the ravages of Banality. I designed mine with a variety of directions to build around in order to adequately reflect the wide berth of dragons within folklore, but the key part of making a dragon changeling is making sure you reflect the sheer glamour power that a dragon has, while tempering that with a logical flaw. Dragons are almost always the "Big Bads" in folklore, but are sleeping giants, taking decades to make solid moves, but striking with incredible force when they do. So build diverse, build powerful, but also build with an equally massive flaw to keep them in place, and explain why there are so few around anymore. They're physically/naratively powerful, but there simply arent many around anymore. Explaining why that last sentence is true within Kith design is pretty pivotal to making a true dragon kith.
        This is a profoundly biased view. There are plenty of little dragons. Plenty of dragon kin. Plenty of myths that your view doesn't match at all. Yeah there are Dragons who wrestle with the gods.. there are also trolls who do that.



        Originally posted by MagicJuggler View Post
        Depending on your views of myth and fable, or how much you subscribe to Campbell, Freud or otherwise, a dragon could be symbolic of greed, fertility, or more. Sometimes a dragon is just a dragon, you know? Other times, "The Dragon" is a trope for the champion/second-in-command of the BBEG, the Vader to the Palpatine, the Walton Simons to the Bob Page, etc.

        Playing on those tropes, you could theoretically alter your Kithain with any of the core merits/flaws in order to represent the sort of story you are trying to tell. But as a full-on Kithbook...that may be somewhat of a stretch.
        ANd I have absolutely no interest in this. Your response is like me pointing out to your Treasure request that there's whole damned chapter on it in the player's guide.

        I desire a Kith. Dragon people are a pretty damned common trope in mythology and Fantasy. Yeah I can easily "add a couple of merits" to any Kith. Yes I can build myown Kith with what's in the books. I would like someone to make something for me. The question was asked what sort of STV level of stuff would I want from Dragon things. My level of "I'd pay for work on Dragons for changeling" if it was a part of a larger work.

        As far as regional books go, the Indian subcontinent is one of the biggest blank spaces as far as Kithain lore goes. Yes, you have the Narakas as Adhene, and Eshu from that area...and that's about it. Ymmv over whether the Eshu being "Africa, the Middle East, and India" is a form of the "Sim Sim Salabim" Trope, but having rules for Devas/Asuras, as well as it being a crossroads for normal Kithain/Hsein would be an interesting melting pot, so to speak.
        I've been playing an Indian Pooka, who readily uses Subcontinental mythology(Hindu, Buddhism, Jains..) to redefine things. As he's a Pooka it becomes up in the air whether or not he's inventing the system whole cloth... or there's a cernal of truth. These are things I've been able to find with some basic online setup.. and twist around as I see fit..

        That being said so far I've had it function like the other courts in the Player's guide. There are some normal Kiths(Pooka for example) Some specialized ones. Like the Fairies of the Middle East call themself all Jinn the Fairies of the subcontinent call themselves Yaksha or Yakshini in the feminine.

        Devas and Assuras ROUGHLY line up with the Tuatha and Formorians.

        Rakasha have been used to cover: All Thallain/Dark Kin, the idea of a particular breed of such, and Ravnos(and possibly all Kindred)

        The Divine Tribe are the proper "Prodigal" vampires, being born of a separate divine Lineage. (This is the Indian Face of the Gods KJ)

        There are Castes. They are more complicated and varied and have particular demands of each member. They are not strictly heirarchal.

        He has claimed a three aspect setup like Nunehi. This is definately a lie but generally when he's in Seelie he thinks of himself as in his Preseserver aspect, with Unseelie varying between Destroyer and Creator.'

        These are just some ideas i've been using. They aren't the most accurate(but they don't need to be) if you can use anything from the go right ahead. I do not consider this a proper replacement for an indian subcontinent book. I am just throwing out something that might help currently and don't consider it an end all be all of options.

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        • #19
          Whoa...I think this is getting heated for relatively little reason. Basically, all I was getting at is that a given Kithain isn't merely cosmetic (despite what some Commoners may say about certain Sidhe...), but that Kithian represent collected dreams and archetypical concepts. Trolls are Strength and Honor, Nockers the quest for knowledge and perfection, Pooka of animal trickery, Redcaps of hunger incarnate. Dreams can take many flavors/aspects too, whether said Pooka represent the Kingfish or Bugs Bunny or the Ratatoskr, or whether the Redcaps are "Meat's Back on the Menu, Boys" Orcs or the never-ending hunger of industrialization (Which would make Upton Sinclair's The Jungle have completely different meaning), or even a morbid Sweeny Todd-esque Waste-Not-Want-Not sort of affair.

          I *personally* disagree there should be a specific Dragon-kin Kithain, simply because there are so many aspects that Dragons can represent, whether they represent righteous anger, ancient wisdom, a hunger for maidens, etc. Now, if someone were to make a Kithbook Dragon where Dragons represent a sort of "blank template" based on regional beliefs, I wouldn't go and call it badwrongfun, but I am still sort of of the school of having a smaller list of flexible Kith, rather than lots and lots of hyperspecific Kith. (Note: I got into Dreaming after Lost, which was a lot more "broad archetype" about Seeming/Kith, and even had a Dual Kith merit. I generally permit a homebrew variant of that Merit for Dreaming games I run. 5 points, for one Birthright AND the Frailty of a second Kith).

          The Treasure Book would, on the other hand, account for options that the Corebook does not strictly allow. "Temporary" items like Chimerical potions/poisons, complex items like vehicles, rules for intelligent/cursed items (which get a brief allusion via Glamour Pact), etc. Currently, the options for Treasures are effectively "Use an Art effect, without Realm qualifier, with either a reflexive trigger or a proactive invocation." And unlike, say, Mage Wonders, a Treasure holds *one* Art and one alone.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MagicJuggler View Post
            Whoa...I think this is getting heated for relatively little reason. Basically, all I was getting at is that a given Kithain isn't merely cosmetic (despite what some Commoners may say about certain Sidhe...), but that Kithian represent collected dreams and archetypical concepts. Trolls are Strength and Honor, Nockers the quest for knowledge and perfection, Pooka of animal trickery, Redcaps of hunger incarnate. Dreams can take many flavors/aspects too, whether said Pooka represent the Kingfish or Bugs Bunny or the Ratatoskr, or whether the Redcaps are "Meat's Back on the Menu, Boys" Orcs or the never-ending hunger of industrialization (Which would make Upton Sinclair's The Jungle have completely different meaning), or even a morbid Sweeny Todd-esque Waste-Not-Want-Not sort of affair.
            They can but the world includes Ifrits and Redcaps. Lilim and Sidhe.. Pooka and half a dozen animal trickster variants(the nunnehi have one, South america has one, Australia has 2...). There's alot of things that overlap. Fairy tales are neat scientific categories. Nor should kiths be.





            I *personally* disagree there should be a specific Dragon-kin Kithain, simply because there are so many aspects that Dragons can represent, whether they represent righteous anger, ancient wisdom, a hunger for maidens, etc. Now, if someone were to make a Kithbook Dragon where Dragons represent a sort of "blank template" based on regional beliefs, I wouldn't go and call it badwrongfun, but I am still sort of of the school of having a smaller list of flexible Kith, rather than lots and lots of hyperspecific Kith. (Note: I got into Dreaming after Lost, which was a lot more "broad archetype" about Seeming/Kith, and even had a Dual Kith merit. I generally permit a homebrew variant of that Merit for Dreaming games I run. 5 points, for one Birthright AND the Frailty of a second Kith).
            If you can write a book on Dragons of the dreaming I'm damned sure it could cover multiple "Kiths" and archtypes.

            https://www.storytellersvault.com/pr.../Kithbook-Faun has three separate and completely different Faun Kiths written up. Dragons could easily be a Gallain type. ...and Dragons are a single kith in Lost so....


            The Treasure Book would, on the other hand, account for options that the Corebook does not strictly allow. "Temporary" items like Chimerical potions/poisons, complex items like vehicles, rules for intelligent/cursed items (which get a brief allusion via Glamour Pact), etc. Currently, the options for Treasures are effectively "Use an Art effect, without Realm qualifier, with either a reflexive trigger or a proactive invocation." And unlike, say, Mage Wonders, a Treasure holds *one* Art and one alone.
            That's litterally not true?

            [quote c20]With increasing use, Treasures develop
            legends of their own. Newly-formed Treasures bear only the Art
            placed within them. Legendary Treasures bear the Art, along
            with memorial abilities associated with their fable.[/quote]


            As for the rest I'm feeling more and more.. I have to ask have you read the player's guide? Temporary Items are litterally covered. Intelligent items.. are covered by Infusion and well any other methods of making intelligent chimera.

            Vehicles rules would be useful in and of themselves.. BUT not really an issue of "complex" treasures. I want to make a gyrocopter..Its... a refluffing of a Flying carpet. I want to make a plane that turns into a robot.. its a metamorphosis 5 effect. I want to make an Iphone that never is out of date.. that's built on metamorphosis 1.

            Really only the "How do I make an inteligent sword" hits my needing to stretch what's available and even then its there..

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            • #21
              The second part of treasures is purely ST fiat. Items do not gain XP in Storyteller, as a general rule.

              The Players Guide gave examples of enchanted Voile and temporary Wonders, but it did not actually provide *systems* on how to actually create them. That's the part, as a ST and Player, that I look for, rather than inferring that a Wonder has [6-Art Level] Charges. The enchanted Voile is even more of a whodunit of examples without an underlying system of how to make them, which leaves me attempting to hodgepodge homebrew a system where I am using a frankenruleset of C20 chimerical crafting, and Dreams&Nightmares, with particular Redes overwritten by the C20 Player Guide. This is not ideal.

              Likewise, there are two ways to make "Sentient" Chimerical Items: Infusion 5, or using the Dreamstuff of a Chimera with the Glamour Pact rede. Something like bargaining with a Chimera to inhabit a suit of armor is...well, create a Lycian character (which also cannot be crafted.)

              As far as vehicles go, the closest thing I have gone to that is to re-tweak the Book of Freeholds, with Size/balefire ratios and a mobility tax. This fails to account for things like, say, soak or health levels. ("What happens if the Chicken Hut gets hit by an RPG-7?"). This is also not accounting for things like multiple targets on said vehicle.

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              • #22
                India, New Zealand, SE Asia and some new Kithbooks are all I need. Ok...get writing, or I'll have to do it and then they'll suck.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lian View Post

                  Also I would Murder for Kithbook; Drake/Dragonkin.
                  I’ll add it to the growing list of things I want to do for the Vault. It will be an ambitious project, so I doubt it will be the first thing I put up there, but it would be a great way to make the Drake kith more widely available. I could also revisit the characters from my anthology story in the opening fiction.


                  Jason Ross Inczauskis, Freelance Writer
                  Projects: Dark Eras 2, Mummy: The Curse 2e, Book of Lasting Death, DtR The Clades Companion, Pirates of Pugmire, They Came From Beyond the Grave!, TC Aeon: Mission Statements, TC In Media Res, DtD Night Horrors: Enemy Action, C20 Anthology of Dreams
                  Masculine pronouns preferred.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MagicJuggler View Post

                    As far as vehicles go, the closest thing I have gone to that is to re-tweak the Book of Freeholds, with Size/balefire ratios and a mobility tax. This fails to account for things like, say, soak or health levels. ("What happens if the Chicken Hut gets hit by an RPG-7?"). This is also not accounting for things like multiple targets on said vehicle.
                    Vehicles are an issue with the system innately, its not just a treasure problem. Like.. how much damage is a car? How hard is to eat? How hard would it be to pull a fishing boat under if you could Metamorphosis int a Kracken? I don't think though as I said this is a treasure issue so much as Storyteller system issue.

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                    • #25
                      I can shift that discussion to a "general World of Darkness" thread, because we can both agree that vehicles have historically been sort of an afterthought in the oWoD system. It seems a little more noticeable in Changeling however, given how Kithbook Nockers (and the...special...War for Concordia) had assorted statistics for Chimerical Vehicles, include Ogre Walkers, Ornithopters, etc. However, pitting them up against, say, PENTEX-owned Apache Gunships from Rage Across the Amazon is another exercise in its own futility.

                      Either way, when White Dragon posted in the other thread about Dragons, I *can* now potentially see the merit of some "Dragon-Kith," not in the "existed all these years" sort of affair, but as Lycians, uplifted Chimera ala Wolpertigers, modified Kithain, etc. I think, within that, the books that can be included are:

                      -New/updated Kithbooks are a safe splat. A more *fun* option could be The Kithbook Laboratory, dealing with more detailed/advanced rules for creating custom/frankenkiths.
                      -An updated Book of Houses, for expanding on the assorted Houseright Boons and Banes. Extra props if you could do some truly screwball crossover rules, such as a merit letting House Balor use Fomori Powers/weaknesses, or Dougal having access to the Digital Web.
                      -An updated Dreams and Nightmares.
                      -Updated/expanded Crafting Rules
                      -An "Enemies Book" so to speak. Aside from The Shadow Court, and some of Dreams and Nightmares, Changeling doesn't really have a good Fomorian equivalent of "Book of the Wyrm." An Enemybook could detail what Thallain Motleys act like, mortal guises, the Adhene domains, etc. It could also presumably have more examples of unique Dauntain, as well as "advantages" (in the most hollow sense) conferred by each of the corresponding Brands. Updated Delusion, Webcraft, and maybe Spirit Link could also be points of interest.
                      -A book on Courtly Love/running Changeling like a romantic game. (With variants for Courtly Love/how to play it without going full "fedora-tipping" as a player, playing it as a dating sim comedy, etc.)

                      My other *personal* wishlist idea, and one which I am currently playing around with houserules for, is running Changeling like a "Kingmaker/Grand Strategy" sort of game. One where each "turn" represents a month of play, each player is playing as a particular ruler in Kithain Society (whether that's the nominal top head of a given Kingdom, or an individual vassal; presumably however, the default game mode would be "Kingdom Clash"), and the ST sets aside a series of "win conditions". Think Changeling the Dreaming meets Diplomacy.

                      PS: As far as Custom Kithain go, aside from a wishlist for a "Regionbook/Kithbook" on the Indian subcontinent, I have also been drafting up ideas/mechanics for Ometeutl ("Dual Gods") as a form of Central American Kithain, which act as a sort of hybrid of conventional Kithain and Nunnehi mechanics. I can start another thread for that, but the old tale of Montezuma despairing when his messenger reported that the Spaniards wore casques of iron, and wielded weapons of iron...that is just too much of a tempting seed to work with.
                      Last edited by MagicJuggler; 10-01-2019, 01:33 PM. Reason: One more Wishlist Item

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                      • #26
                        Arts and Birthrights. I'd like to see this recovered. Like I've commented Nockers are supposed to be better at Making Treasures but their BRs don't engage with any system of making treasures, chimera etc. They get a macguyver power which is useful but if they want to work on an extended task this doesn't help them.

                        Similarly Pooka and other kiths who have shapeshifting as part of their BR don't really get an advantage to it when expanding their Shapeshifting by picking up Metamorphosis(or primal)

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