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The Enchanted, The Fae Blooded and The Autumn

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  • The Enchanted, The Fae Blooded and The Autumn

    Okay, am I missing something or is C20 still missing a few rules on how the mortal side "Works" in game.

    First off, how do stigmata work? Does the autumn person spend a temp banality to activate them? If not and they're more of an At-Will thing, Why do so many of them act as a way to gain more temp banality? If temp banality doesn't "Do" anything for them, then all it'll actually do is fast-track said autumn people to Banality 10 and then become useless.

    Also, can just any mortal gain stigma? The fluff in c20 core only points out people who actively criticize others, but if that was the only distinction then half the population of planet earth would be Banality 10 autumn people within a week with how the above stigma mechanics work.

    Second, how exactly does glamour work for kinains? Is your permanent glamour score stuck at 2, is your permanent glamour calculated normally with the caveat that you can only have 2 temp glamour at a time, or do kinains not have a Permanent glamour score and gain a temp glamour score like enchanted mortals(but replenish-able)? Are they able to use dross or go through any of the epiphanies? Putting themselves through rapture or being the subject of a kithain musing them for reverie seems like they'd work just fine

    Also, what the heck is a "winter" kinain? Why are they so important that local courts will apparently drop whatever they were doing to deal with them? The appendix mentions this as if they were distinct from "autumn" and "dauntan" kinains somehow, meaning that it shouldn't have anything to do with stigma or art-of-ruin development. Mabye kithain just Really hate kinains with the "winter" changeling art?

    Also-also, What the heck happens when a kinain calls on the Wyrd? They don't have a fae mein, but they can explicitly take wyrd cantrips and presumably they can unleash. So do they just stay normal, but exude an aura of their "heritage"?

    Finally, does the parted mists ritual prevent a mortal from getting temp glamour from their patron? Can they still be subjects of reverie? How many bestowments does an enchanted mortal get from the ritual? The wording suggests they get more than one, but fail to specify a number.
    Last edited by Prometheas; 12-08-2019, 04:48 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
    Okay, am I missing something or is C20 still missing a few rules on how the mortal side "Works" in game.

    Second, how exactly does glamour work for kinains? Is your permanent glamour score stuck at 2, is your permanent glamour calculated normally with the caveat that you can only have 2 temp glamour at a time, or do kinains not have a Permanent glamour score and gain a temp glamour score like enchanted mortals(but replenish-able)? Are they able to use dross or go through any of the epiphanies? Putting themselves through rapture or being the subject of a kithain musing them for reverie seems like they'd work just fine

    Also, what the heck is a "winter" kinain? Why are they so important that local courts will apparently drop whatever they were doing to deal with them? The appendix mentions this as if they were distinct from "autumn" and "dauntan" kinains somehow, meaning that it shouldn't have anything to do with stigma or art-of-ruin development. Mabye kithain just Really hate kinains with the "winter" changeling art?

    Also-also, What the heck happens when a kinain calls on the Wyrd? They don't have a fae mein, but they can explicitly take wyrd cantrips and presumably they can unleash. So do they just stay normal, but exude an aura of their "heritage"?

    Yes. A great deal was left unspecified. My take on Kinain rules are as follows:

    Kinain begin with a Glamour 2 and Banality 3. Glamour may be raised with freebie points or experience points at the same cost as for Changelings. Though I would restrict a Kinains Glamour to their Faerie Blood rating +1.

    Kinain regenerate one point of Glamour a week, up to their maximum. They can make use of balefire or other wellsprings of mana and dross as a source of Glamour.

    As for Unleashing, I would say that this is only possible for Changelings and not Kinain. This is both to highlight the special nature of Changelings that comes with a greater threat of Banality, and to highlight that kinain are mostly mortal.

    Winter kinain. I assume that these are kinain in service to the fomorians. Such beings might be kinain born of Thallain kinfolk, or even from bloodlines "blessed" by some dark powers. If this is the case, Winter kinain would be a dire threat.


    “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
    Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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    • #3
      Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post


      Yes. A great deal was left unspecified. My take on Kinain rules are as follows:

      Kinain begin with a Glamour 2 and Banality 3. Glamour may be raised with freebie points or experience points at the same cost as for Changelings. Though I would restrict a Kinains Glamour to their Faerie Blood rating +1.

      Kinain regenerate one point of Glamour a week, up to their maximum. They can make use of balefire or other wellsprings of mana and dross as a source of Glamour.

      As for Unleashing, I would say that this is only possible for Changelings and not Kinain. This is both to highlight the special nature of Changelings that comes with a greater threat of Banality, and to highlight that kinain are mostly mortal.

      Winter kinain. I assume that these are kinain in service to the fomorians. Such beings might be kinain born of Thallain kinfolk, or even from bloodlines "blessed" by some dark powers. If this is the case, Winter kinain would be a dire threat.
      Eh, I don't think tying glamour to fearie blood like that is necessarily a good idea. With kinain as written, they're definitely the most powerful "half-mortals" in WOD and giving them a much bigger pool is going to exaggerate that. If wellsprings are usable, then they'll bet a full glamour more often than not. How many changelings have more than 6 glamour and 6 arts? Given their banality immunity these would make them More Powerful than a lot of changelings.

      On the subject of unleashing, I feel that the 2 glamour limit was more to keep that to a minimum rather than stomp it out. Unleashing is important when it comes to nightmare dice and bedlam thresholds, something kinains are notably Not Immune To in this version. I also think for kinains, bedlam is the replacement for being dream-struck in this version. So I wouldn't really limit them on that.

      My biggest question is more the nebulous status of a kinains permanent glamour score. The game never mentions it so I'm inclined to think it's either calculated normally like a kithain(but with a temp glamour limit) or it doesn't exist like an enchanted mortal(which would make some arts not function correctly so I doubt it.)

      I'm still not convinced why a "Winter kinain" would be more of a threat than an autumn or dauntan kinain.

      I'm not saying they can't be a threat, it's quite the opposite. A kinain with fearie blood 0, the dauntain art "ruin" and the stigma "rationalization"(a kinain with only 1 art and 1 stigma) would essentially be a walking avatar of winter that can step freely between the autumn and dreaming. I just don't really see much of a difference.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

        Eh, I don't think tying glamour to fearie blood like that is necessarily a good idea. With kinain as written, they're definitely the most powerful "half-mortals" in WOD and giving them a much bigger pool is going to exaggerate that. If wellsprings are usable, then they'll bet a full glamour more often than not. How many changelings have more than 6 glamour and 6 arts? Given their banality immunity these would make them More Powerful than a lot of changelings.

        On the subject of unleashing, I feel that the 2 glamour limit was more to keep that to a minimum rather than stomp it out. Unleashing is important when it comes to nightmare dice and bedlam thresholds, something kinains are notably Not Immune To in this version. I also think for kinains, bedlam is the replacement for being dream-struck in this version. So I wouldn't really limit them on that.

        My biggest question is more the nebulous status of a kinains permanent glamour score. The game never mentions it so I'm inclined to think it's either calculated normally like a kithain(but with a temp glamour limit) or it doesn't exist like an enchanted mortal(which would make some arts not function correctly so I doubt it.)
        I see your points here, and will consider them. And I think you are spot on regarding unleashing.

        I suppose that thematically, the limited personal glamour resources is much like legends of hedge magicians. Kinain wishing to use powerful cantrips would need to gather dross to pull of larger effects. Encouraging quests, ill-advised pacts with nightmare entities, chimerical alchemy, hunting out mystic herbs and dream beasts.



        “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
        Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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        • #5
          Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post

          I see your points here, and will consider them. And I think you are spot on regarding unleashing.

          I suppose that thematically, the limited personal glamour resources is much like legends of hedge magicians. Kinain wishing to use powerful cantrips would need to gather dross to pull of larger effects. Encouraging quests, ill-advised pacts with nightmare entities, chimerical alchemy, hunting out mystic herbs and dream beasts.
          I think your right. It'd fit into changeling themes of questing and adventure.

          It also occurs to me that kinains also make more dangerous antagonists than many of the "major antagonists", they're potential autumn people that can use arts and enter the dreaming. Not even the thallians or dauntan can do that in c20 because of how they're explicitly Not immune to undoing. Maybe that's what was meant by a "Winter" kinain, a kinain that nabs the changeling art "Ruin" or some stigma before running through the dreaming like the worlds most banal natural disaster.

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          • #6
            I posted this to the wrong thread:

            Here's a handy summary of kinain character generation that used slightly tweaked 2e rules: http://web.archive.org/web/201708270...nainchart.html. It works quite well.

            It doesn't mention maximum Glamour ratings but it does give higher starting Glamour for different ages (Seemings). You could either: use these as starting minimums (which makes kinain beefier than in C20) or use them as maximums (which seems closer in intent to C20).

            Here's my thinking, though: kinain are restricted in how many powers they have and can use, and generally regain Glamour at a much slower pace. So it doesn't actually matter if they have higher Glamour than some changelings--they can't use that Glamour as efficiently anyway.

            Failing that, making their maximum Glamour twice their age-related starting Glamour would be an easy house rule to limit Glamour. So they would have 4-8 Glamour, tops.

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