Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Any of you find that Nunnehi and Menehune not being able to get Glamour to be odd?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Any of you find that Nunnehi and Menehune not being able to get Glamour to be odd?

    I’m not saying that C:TD is racist or anything but it is that native cultures can’t do culture and live in the unspoiled wilderness. The blog Native appropriation has something similar to say about Harry Potter “ This whole wandless magic thing is bugging me. So Rowling has said multiple times that it takes a lot more skill to perform magic without a wand (Dumbledore does it at several points in the books), but points out that wands are what basically refines magic. Wands are a European invention, so basically she’s demonstrating Eurocentric superiority here–the introduction of European “technology” helps bring the Native wizards to a new level. AKA colonial narrative 101.”

    In 20th edition (not sure if it’s in the original immortal eye book)it was a White Nocker that introduced the Changling Way to the Hawaiian Fae. Which has yikes implications.

    It also suggests that Natives are “Savages” with no culture. I know that’s not what the books says but it still has ugly colonialist undertones even do it definitely wasn’t intentional

    Also the Hsein aren’t Fae their a different type of creature Entirely. Cause in WOD Asia is separate from the rest of the world. And like the Umbra is different for some reason? Why where they put in the Changling line? What do they have to do with Fae?

    Here’s a link to the blog. http://nativeappropriations.com/2016...art-1-ugh.html

  • #2
    WoD, being racist? Color me stunned.


    Remi. she/her. game designer.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

      In 20th edition (not sure if it’s in the original immortal eye book)it was a White Nocker that introduced the Changling Way to the Hawaiian Fae. Which has yikes implications.

      It also suggests that Natives are “Savages” with no culture. I know that’s not what the books says but it still has ugly colonialist undertones even do it definitely wasn’t intentional

      Also the Hsein aren’t Fae their a different type of creature Entirely. Cause in WOD Asia is separate from the rest of the world. And like the Umbra is different for some reason? Why where they put in the Changling line? What do they have to do with Fae?

      Here’s a link to the blog. http://nativeappropriations.com/2016...art-1-ugh.html
      Hsein are weird. I have no problem with them existing but I also have Kithain and Gallain ( For want of better umbrella terms) present throughout all of Asia, Oceania and the subcontinent.

      The Umbra isn't different in Asia, some of the terms are different and some areas interact with others in different ways than elsewhere but the same is true for Africa, Oceania, South America etc.

      As to why they were shoved into changeling? Same reason Mummies were originally shoved into Vampire I guess, they wanted it to be part of a line. But yes, there definetely should have been more info on the Kithain and Gallain of Asia.

      I can see the point of view re. Menehune learning the Changeling Way from a european knocker, not sure why different groups couldn't have simply come up with it independantly....I mean its an ugly kludge brought about by desperation but it works.

      Should Nunnehi and Menehune be able to harvest Glamour like Kithain, yes. I personally would make it a permanent choice they need to make whether to tie themselves to the vagaries of human communities or whether to isolate themselves and forge stronger bonds with Nature. Most I would think would still choose the latter, because human communities are not reliable sources of Glamour/Mana/'Medicine'whereas the world will always be there.....hopefully.



      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Damian May View Post

        Hsein are weird. I have no problem with them existing but I also have Kithain and Gallain ( For want of better umbrella terms) present throughout all of Asia, Oceania and the subcontinent.

        The Umbra isn't different in Asia, some of the terms are different and some areas interact with others in different ways than elsewhere but the same is true for Africa, Oceania, South America etc.

        As to why they were shoved into changeling? Same reason Mummies were originally shoved into Vampire I guess, they wanted it to be part of a line. But yes, there definetely should have been more info on the Kithain and Gallain of Asia.

        I can see the point of view re. Menehune learning the Changeling Way from a european knocker, not sure why different groups couldn't have simply come up with it independantly....I mean its an ugly kludge brought about by desperation but it works.

        Should Nunnehi and Menehune be able to harvest Glamour like Kithain, yes. I personally would make it a permanent choice they need to make whether to tie themselves to the vagaries of human communities or whether to isolate themselves and forge stronger bonds with Nature. Most I would think would still choose the latter, because human communities are not reliable sources of Glamour/Mana/'Medicine'whereas the world will always be there.....hopefully.


        I know cause why aren’t their Dreaming Fae in Asia? Yokai? What is that.

        Comment


        • #5
          I have more than a little Native American blood in me (Ojibwe and Onondaga) as well as friends among the local tribes. So this jumped out at me as well.

          In my games, the Nunnehi can collect Glamour as Kithain. But if they want to collect from nature, they need a totem. So far there is no issue.


          “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
          Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post
            I have more than a little Native American blood in me (Ojibwe and Onondaga) as well as friends among the local tribes. So this jumped out at me as well.

            In my games, the Nunnehi can collect Glamour as Kithain. But if they want to collect from nature, they need a totem. So far there is no issue.

            Nice. Good option.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

              I know cause why aren’t their Dreaming Fae in Asia? Yokai? What is that.

              Has there been anything stating there definetely aren't? Or have they just never been mentioned?

              I've definetely added them to my SE Asian game. Orang Bunian are pretty much straight up faeries.
              Last edited by Damian May; 01-28-2020, 09:36 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                Has there been anything stating there definetely aren't? Or have they just never been mentioned?

                I've definetely added them to my SE Asian game. Orang Bunian are pretty much straight up faeries.
                No reason that their cannot. In fact, I prefer this approach for Yokai. That they be fae, and not as the Hsien.

                Where might I see your Orang Bunian kith ?


                “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
                Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post

                  No reason that their cannot. In fact, I prefer this approach for Yokai. That they be fae, and not as the Hsien.

                  Where might I see your Orang Bunian kith ?

                  I've only used them as NPCs so far in Hungry Ghost and Shen games but I've basically been treating them as having the innate ability to vanish from mortal sight.

                  I'm debating just giving them Sidhe Birthrights as every story and piece of folklore I've found pretty much describes their appearance and abilities as essential Malay ' Elves'. Abilities like flight, mind reading, memory changing can all be Arts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post
                    In my games, the Nunnehi can collect Glamour as Kithain.
                    Yeah. That.

                    I've always found distasteful to shoehorn native-american dreams into spiritual indians that only find glamour in nature, and maybe native art, but only if it's traditional...whereas "core" changeling go beyond their own cultural caricatures, influencing the dreams everywhere, spinning new tales.

                    Surely the authors don't want to disrespect native cultures...but it ends looking a lot like "noble savages" vs. "civilized white people of europe" (which it's in itself nonsense, because the Eshu aren't really european...)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                      Yeah. That.

                      I've always found distasteful to shoehorn native-american dreams into spiritual indians that only find glamour in nature, and maybe native art, but only if it's traditional...whereas "core" changeling go beyond their own cultural caricatures, influencing the dreams everywhere, spinning new tales.

                      Surely the authors don't want to disrespect native cultures...but it ends looking a lot like "noble savages" vs. "civilized white people of europe" (which it's in itself nonsense, because the Eshu aren't really european...)
                      yeah theirs lot innovative art by native artistssee https://www.npr.org/2019/12/18/78891...alaxy-far-away. not to mention art is not the only way for a human to touch the dreaming. 20th edition says scientists that work for new theories can be a source of Glamour or social actvists. in the original run house Alli could draw Glamour
                      ​from sufficient political
                      Description

                      maneuvering. Description

                      Last edited by Konradleijon; 01-29-2020, 10:53 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sure enough, art is not the only way for a human to touch the dreaming...

                        And where art and aesthetics matter, I would go beyond even "native-looking". Eshu aren't forced to gain gamour from Yoruba-looking stuff. Shide aren't limited to gaelic aesthetics...

                        ...If the authors wanted to higlight the cutures where the Nunnehi come from (admitedly neglected in pop-culture fiction), I can see some merit...but probably there were better ways to do so than restricting you, by RAW, to what amounts to almost a Wild West caricature (as was in 2nd ed. Haven't read C20 yet, doesn't sound like they changed a lot on that particular).
                        Last edited by Aleph; 01-29-2020, 11:25 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I really don't have anything new to contribute, but I agree with the points you guys made. If I ever run my own Changeling game I'm definitely gonna incorporate them.


                          In D&D, Fionnghuala is the goddess of Swan Maidens. Fionnghuala is also the Irish version of Penelope.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            https://walkingawayfromarcadia.podbean.com/page/3/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I do find the Nunnehi a little more problematic than regular Kithain, though not specifically because of Magical Native American tropes. After all, Changelings as a whole tended to be "magical folklore of a Region," personified in some form or other.

                              Rather, the main issue I had with Nunnehi, is they sort of started the trend of Thallain, Hsein, Inanimae, Adhene, etc. Yanno, lots and lots of splats, some with relatively minute differences.

                              By contrast, I was a fan of how Lost had the Seeming/Kith type/subtype categorization, as it helped the end product feel more unified and less innately bloated at first, while making it possible for the same "grindgnasher" able to represent Redcaps, Oni, Rock Devourers, or any other universal hunger-spirit. The Dual-Kith merit further increased options without the needed for addenda and splatbloat, since combinatorial expansion.

                              While I am glad that C20 cleaned up a lot from the old Dreaming game, it feels like for a "C4" game, that having your "archetypical" Kith, as well as the *option& to layer regional/cultural templates on top, would allow for a certain degree of customization. That said and done, rather than "Native American Cultures Can Paint The Colors of the Wind," or something ultra-specific/regional, do like Civ 5 and have your "abstract" boons/duties, like "Hamadryadic" (Can Harvest, extra plant vulnerabilities), "Anchored" (aka Inanimae/Lycians having a Guise/Anchor, or "Silverbane" (barred from the Silver Path, but attuned to Paths of Balor).

                              Then you would presumably have some consolidation/cross-standardization between Arts, Hsein Alchemy, Redes, and Inanimae powers.

                              Yanno, both reducing gamebloat/rulelawyering, and Supernatural Unfortunate Implications.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X