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Pros and Cons of Chimera don't need redes to effect the Autumn World

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  • Pros and Cons of Chimera don't need redes to effect the Autumn World

    Okay I forget where in the C20 book but I remember somewhere saying Chimera can move and interact with the Autumn World if nobody Banal is watching (what's the page number again), before this used to be something they needed Redes for. Now they can all do it and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Needing less specific powers to do things can be cool and streamlined but it also kept things clean when not all Chimera could mess with the mortal world. Now a clever kid with an Imaginary friend could cheat on tests, or become a charlatan fake psychic (I always wanted to explore the character of a mortal without any special powers but just a loyal chimera they could interact with but who would use their invisible friend to fake psychic powers).

    But one of things that messes with me is this really clutters the world, before chimeras would exist and they would be their own thing and not really affect stuff now all the Chimera that exist are able to affect things all the time when not observed! That is a headache for portraying the setting. But I guess any unnatural or proven impossible alterations would probably covered up by the mists right, like Dragon Claws in your library just appearing as vandals or bookshelves dominoing over and burning?

    But what it does open up is now Chimera aren't limited to just being servants on the enchanted side of things thing, now if you are a Changeling with a lot of Chimera servants you could have them mine or build buildings and infrastructure? This opens up what I always felt changeling was missing, the underground side of Faery Lore, basically the idea that otherworld was under the mounds or that fae lived in caves and unseen places. But would then an Unenchanted Mortal stumbling onto your underground city have the Mists kick in and destroy it the moment they set their eyes on it? Its like the thread months ago where someone asked about a Chimerical Boulder trap with a real boulder. Or even longer ago when I was talking about what about Changelings using Arts and Treasures to Go to Mars before humanity and hoaxing a bunch of Fake Martian Ruins because they know it would kickstart Glamour in the world (I still love that idea by the way).

    Changeling was already the Gameline with one of the largest amount of supernatural populations, with easily over a hundred thousand changeling if the world works how it does in the books just under Wraith with their Millions of Ghost. But if you include Chimerical Citizens along with Enchanted and Kinain you can Boost populations of the Kingdoms into the size of actual Kingdoms, and Faery Cities start becoming like real cities. And if Chimera can touch Autumn World items then you have things where they can sabatoge the mortal world or really mess with economy when you have an army of gnomes making artisan shoes, or mining you Emeralds.

    So I'm asking everyones thoughts on this, I could just say they need Redes for it in my games but I don't know if I want to do that, this has potential.


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    I'm very leery of allowing purely Chimerical beings to interact with purely physical things without some kind of aid (like Redes). It's too much like letting ghosts or spirits interact more or less freely with the physical world. Now, they should be reasonably free to interact with things that have both a physical and a chimerical existence like changelings and lycians and even the Enchanted. Now, I could see the notion of Enchantment being extendable to a place, allowing chimera to interact with anything in that place as normal; though I'd definitely include the caveat that the Mists wreak havoc on the Enchantment, making out-of-the-way, guarded locations the best places to Enchant. (Or does Changeling already have something like this?)


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    • #3
      Yeah it rubbed me the wrong way but I tried brainwashing myself to the possibilities.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        I do think there's something there, though: as I said, I could see expanding the Rite of Parted Mists (CtD pp.461–462) to apply to a location rather than a person, causing everything in that location to be “enchanted” in the sense that the difference between physical and chimerical doesn't exist within its borders. You might even include the location gaining a Glamour rating, but only using it as a way to protect itself from Banal interlopers.

        (Conversely, you might also introduce Banal locations that chimerae can't ever safely, if at all.)


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
          I do think there's something there, though: as I said, I could see expanding the Rite of Parted Mists (CtD pp.461–462) to apply to a location rather than a person, causing everything in that location to be “enchanted” in the sense that the difference between physical and chimerical doesn't exist within its borders. You might even include the location gaining a Glamour rating, but only using it as a way to protect itself from Banal interlopers.

          (Conversely, you might also introduce Banal locations that chimerae can't ever safely, if at all.)
          Oh that is an idea I never seen suggested! Well Freeholds are already like that so people that see the inner portion they see Miens, but a freehold light is interesting, and would be a more manageable way to have an enchanted population, like a secret cavern village. Though I guess at this point you already would try to make it a freehold, the benefit being maybe you can make this anywhere while the Freeholds need more particular factors in place.

          Oh they do have Banality ratings for locations, I think they were new in C20 because I don't remember them before.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            For this, I would treat an areas Banality rating as its Gauntlet rating from Werewolf and Mage. Chimera can only interact with the Autumn world in places of low to zero banality. Banal mortals raise the local banality while they are present.
            Last edited by MythAdvocate; 03-29-2020, 08:05 AM.


            “Humpty had always sat on walls, it was his way.”
            Jasper Fforde, The Big Over Easy

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MythAdvocate View Post
              For this, I would treat an areas Banality rating as its Gauntlet rating from Werewolf and Mage. Chimera can only interact with the Autumn world in places of low to zero banality. Banal mortals raise the local banality while they are present.
              Oh this is a simple and elegant solution. And the books seem to have the time fall back on Werewolf Guantlet rules, some times they tweak sometimes they don't. I'm all for it because I'm prone to werewolf rules for the spirit worlds anyways. :P


              It is a time for great deeds!

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              • #8
                If I had a poll option I would ask people what do they think about Chimera constructing things like Underground Cities and how is that effected by Mortals eventually discovering it? Are they then just mysterious buildings or are they just weird coincidental caverns?


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  The reason why I'm not as wary as some, although I can empathize with those who are, is that aside from just liking the concept, I think that ambient banality does a great deal to help ensure that chimera are reined in and of causing too much trouble.

                  In that sense, I view the Autumn rede as not just allowing them to manifest before banal witnesses, but also to endure the banality inherent to the autumn world.

                  To explain: judging from the 1-10 banality rating system in C20, the average person is living life with somewhere between a rating of 6-8 banality. This is without factoring in the shiftiness of the WoD, which probably tilts the scale a bit towards the higher end.

                  This means that, by and large, most places will take on an ambient banality of around those levels. Perhaps the local park or arcade will go lower, but in the same sense the local high school or DMV might ratchet up noticeably.

                  The reason I bring this up is because I think this is why most chimera aren't going to be abusing The Mist's Loophole about banal witnesses: even unobserved, the autumn would is infectiously banal. Unless the chimera can reap more glamour then the amount they'd lose stepping into mundane space, it's simply not worth doing more then once or twice.

                  I think that the Gauntlet is a useful thing to consider, but I also think that banality alone works to keep chimerical reality from getting too zany if an ST wants to avoid that. Existing without a banality shield like changelings do is simply asking to be undone by the cold waves that make up most of the mundane realm.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    If I had a poll option I would ask people what do they think about Chimera constructing things like Underground Cities and how is that effected by Mortals eventually discovering it? Are they then just mysterious buildings or are they just weird coincidental caverns?
                    I would just go with the coincidential caverns. This is how you get fairy rings, nazca lines, ghost tracks, the Devil's Tramping Grounds, etc.

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                    • #11
                      This is why we need the books to talk more about Fae living under mounds and in caves and mountains. I need to finish working on the Chthon Art.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        Underground chimerical domains sound really interesting to me although I do imagine a lot of them would either be freeholds or in the Near Dreaming. Stepping through mushroom rings or whispering into chasms and sliding into a freehold and that sort of thing.

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