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  • #46
    Originally posted by Luisarmander View Post
    If the Nunnehi get a sourcebook (as they should), i would like the emphasis on the fact that they are not "Fairies".
    I like the idea of Kithain getting to America to find these guys with a link to the Dreaming, and powers similar enough to their own that the ignorant Werewolves and Mages get away with calling Fae... but different enough that even though a couple centuries have come and gone since that first meeting, they are still considered Gallain


    What makes something a Fairy? What makes something a creature of the Dreaming vs the Umbra? I think its very interesting Eshu have become Kithain while Nunnehi remain on the outside.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Lian View Post



      What makes something a Fairy? What makes something a creature of the Dreaming vs the Umbra? I think its very interesting Eshu have become Kithain while Nunnehi remain on the outside.
      The cynical part of me thinks it's because African-Americans are more vocal and have more buying power in the US than Native Americans, particularly at the time CTD was first published. TV and film, for instance, do at least pretend to include black people, but Native American actors and characters are far, far less visible.

      Within the game itself, that probably also translates to the World of Darkness. The fae aren't accurate representations of nuanced folkloric beliefs, but rather broad archetypes based on cultural tropes.

      The Eshu, then, represent popular conceptions of the dreams and folklore of the African Diaspora in the US, which is closer to popular understanding than Native American traditions. Black power, civil rights, Afrocentrism and black music in general have all made Black consciousness a (small but significant) part of American culture.

      Indeed, you could even argue that the way the Eshu actually conflate several different cultures and their folklore is because American Black politics (with a capital B) actually merges widely disparate cultures into one African-American identity.

      Native American beliefs, being more closely guarded, retaining (in some cases) their distinctiveness to a greater degree, without the homogenisation African-American culture has faced, and being less 'popular'/well known in general therefore aren't archetypal or broad enough to cluster into kiths. What we end up with is part-spirit beings who are the remnants of more hyperlocal traditions, who've resisted being subsumed into a more uniform kithain identity.
      Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 05-31-2016, 03:40 PM.

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      • #48
        Also, as a case in point, the Eshu kith throws in Asian tropes, despite being named after a West African god (West Africa being the origin of most African-Americans who arrived via the slave trase).

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Dwight View Post

          James Baskett was awesome in song of the south, can I have my magical Negro book now?
          You know that the two subjects are profoundly different. Maria Ouspenskaya performance was meant to present a heroic figure. A magical Negro is a plot device, Maleva is as much a character in the story with her own goals and values as Larry Talbot or sir John. Like Charlie Chan, Maleva represents a past period's attack on racism that was packaged to sell in the Hollywood context and slip out past the Production code which forbade showing non-whites and racial minorities of any type as equals. The compromises required to make the attack on racism makes those who fought racism look racist. Are Maria Ouspenskaya and the film where she played Maleva to be scorned because they fought to subvert a racist production code that no longer exists?

          As to the larger question. The Rom have been in Gothick fiction for centuries. As a widely misunderstood minority that is likely to get depicted in the kind of fiction we play with, they deserve a respectful book that deals with among other things, why they get dragged into this kind of fiction.

          But banishing Maleva and Esmeralda is pointless.
          Last edited by Astromancer; 05-26-2017, 10:18 AM.

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          • #50
            I know this is an older thread and got very off topic, but I wanted to briefly chime in. My father was good friends with a Cherokee medicine man and I spent a lot of my childhood visiting his home and the Cherokee reservation in western North Carolina. I love the idea of the Nunnehi and think they have just as much of a place in Changeling as the Uktena and Wendigo in Werewolf. I know that the book would have to walk a fine line between respecting the culture and keeping a fictional fairy setting. But I definitely believe it could be done. In fact, I think a Nunnehi book is desperately needed in the game line. One of the things that always bothered me (and which is still true in C20) is the very limited selection of Native American fae. There is about one per geographic region, and not even one per real-world tribe. The mythology of the tribes is extensive and rich, and as with the European fae you can see many common elements that would allow combining of fae into one "kith" across different tribes. I've used the Nunnehi in several games and have felt limited because I didn't have the time to do tons of research and creations of new splats. I would use them more if there was an official book for it. Get the right writers, involve true Native American historians and folklore specialists, and you can have a book that fits well with the game but still respects the heritage and culture of the people.




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            • #51
              Originally posted by Prince of the Night View Post
              or the bashing of Chakotay on Voyager.
              Hey, I resent that!
              Chakotay gets bashed because his character was terribly written by stupid writers! He was supposed to be a guerilla fighter who taught advanced tactics and warfare at Starfleet Academy and then they have him spout some hippie Kumbaya-shit because he is native. The man sent a several-giga-ton nuclear warhead toward Kardassia to defend his home and then he says shit like "Home is wherever you happen to be!"
              Fuck Voyager!
              Sorry, some white fog clouded my mind... where were we?
              Honestly, WW should probably hire some consultants before writing books about cultures they don't know or understand. If not out of respect, than at least out of self-respect. I'm Austrian, I have the original "A World of Darkness" setting guide from 2nd Ed and when I want my entire group to pee themselves laughing, I read them the entry it has on Austria. Seriously, Shepert is right, those things need consultants, naive co-authors and the like. Otherwise we might get another *shudder* Voyager

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Davesknd View Post

                Honestly, WW should probably hire some consultants before writing books about cultures they don't know or understand. If not out of respect, than at least out of self-respect. I'm Austrian, I have the original "A World of Darkness" setting guide from 2nd Ed and when I want my entire group to pee themselves laughing, I read them the entry it has on Austria. Seriously, Shepert is right, those things need consultants, naive co-authors and the like.
                Exactly! For my own games I'll do some internet searches, especially Wikipedia, if I want some background information on a place or culture. But that is not the same as being truly familiar with the original source. I might be able to run a game in Chicago by looking at travel guides and maps, but that's never going to be the same as a game run by someone who grew up and lives there. Same with various cultures. A good game company should really get experts in an area to double-check the material before publishing it if they want to have a semblance of realism in the setting.




                Visit my freehold for Changeling links, settings, art, and other goodies.
                The Shepherd's Freehold

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